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welcome to skeptic oh where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics now most of us at this

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point accept that near-death experience

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science provides a unique way for

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serious researchers to look at some of

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these deep mysteries of the afterlife

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but we also know that that road to

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discovery is filled with a lot of

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potholes

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there's stuck in the mud academics who

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can't bear the thought of having been

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wrong for all those years

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they're well-meaning Christians New

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Agers and spiritual seekers and I'd have

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to throw myself in that category want to

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claim nve's as their exclusive domain

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the barriers to really understanding the

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deeper implications of NDE science are

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many and that's what makes it so

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exciting when someone like today's guest

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dr. gregory shushan comes along he's got

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a new book near-death experience in

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indigenous religions and it looks to me

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to be one of those books that really

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delves so deeply into one of the

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questions that has really been central

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to the ongoing discussion about NDE

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science it's a question that's

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interested both skeptics

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they've picked it up as their cause and

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proponents they've picked it up in there

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as their cause and that is what are we

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to make of nde accounts across cultures

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and an appalling question to that is how

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might those experiences have impacted

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those religious traditions that we see

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and the spiritual beliefs which we're

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gonna have to deconstruct a little bit

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so the basic question usually kind of

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falls into you know does the lack of

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consistency within the NDE accounts

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across cultures do those mean

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as the skeptics would have us believe

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and I don't skeptics you know you know

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I'm just using to fill in those people

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on one camp who then use that to bolster

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their claim that maybe this is more of a

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delusional kind of thing that people are

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creating in their head or another way of

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looking at it is do the patterns the

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deeper patterns within these accounts

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suggest that maybe nd E's have an even

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more richer deeper influence on these

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cultures all the way to maybe even being

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the source of the religions we see so

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this is an awesome interview we have

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coming up a deep dive anthropology

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religious history in the east science

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world-class scholar recognized expert in

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his field it's really really great to

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welcome you dr. Shi Shan to sceptical

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thanks so much for joining me thanks

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Alex and thanks for that great

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introduction there's a really good good

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summary of some of the thorny problems

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of this kind of research

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that's the deal with well it's just the

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beginning and I guess that's what I

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appreciated about reading your book I

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just mentioned off and that I feel like

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I missed the point

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in a lot of ways when we talked a few

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years ago and I don't want to beat

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myself up too bad cuz I got one point

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but I kind of missed the larger point of

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your approach your methodology as an

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academic who is looking at this in a

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very serious way and there's a lot of

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issues around that so I'll tell you what

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I've been playing this little game I

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call skeptical jeopardy as a way of just

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kind of moving the conversation along

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and giving you a chance to kind of guide

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the conversation but I think it's only

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fitting in this case that I picked the

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first one because it's where I think we

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have to start and that's just the basics

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of cross-cultural NDE you know who who

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are you

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and then who are the cultures that we're

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looking

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rundown of the basics of your work in

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cross-cultural and de stuff okay well

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first you shouldn't beat yourself up

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because the first book was really pretty

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different than this book so I could see

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how it could you know throw someone for

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a loop so basically my background

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started out doing archaeology and

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Egyptology eastern Mediterranean

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archaeology and I was reading afterlife

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texts and ancient Egyptian afterlife

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texts like the coffin techs and Pyramid

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Texts which preceded the Book of the

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Dead and I started noticing similarities

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between those descriptions of the

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afterlife and in DES and I had read

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Carroll Zaleski's book Otherworld

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journeys where she looked at medieval

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visions of the afterlife in the context

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of NDE so I kind of started thinking you

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know something interesting is going on

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here and and is it possible that ancient

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Egyptian afterlife beliefs you know the

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origins of them can be feminine in DES

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so I decided to do a comparative study

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Egypt Vedic India Mesopotamia

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Mesoamerica and ancient China choosing

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those because they were all so diverse

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and culturally independent they didn't

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have any influence on each other to

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speak of there were almost no actual

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accounts of Indies from these cultures

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there were a couple from China one one

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or two from Mesoamerica a few references

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and Indian cultures but for the most

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part it was really comparing afterlife

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texts so it was there was some

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speculation there is a little bit more

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speculative than the recent book which

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we'll get to but just for the background

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that was essentially looking at

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similarities between afterlife beliefs

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across cultures and seeing how they

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correspond to

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NDE phenomena each element of the NDE so

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for example we take the Tibetan Book of

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the Dead and say that's a text let's

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study the text rather than looking for

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accounts however you would get those

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accounts the the starting point for you

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which makes a lot of sense was the tech

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yeah now you've kind of shifted a little

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bit in this research yeah because

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they're they're almost there almost are

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no text from the ancient civilizations

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that I was looking at so so yeah it's

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looking at you know description of the

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other world journey and a Sumerian myth

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compared to the same thing and a you

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know the description of the afterlife

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and the Chinese text or whatever so so

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it was um finding that in these

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civilizations there were this you know

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set of similar elements not only across

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cultures but two nd ease so my my idea

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was that those similarities can best be

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accounted for by the idea that people

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are having any ease in all these

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cultures and facing their afterlife

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beliefs on them so so I'm moving forward

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to the to the recent stuff by indigenous

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religions the title the new book

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near-death experience and indigenous

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religions that refers to a lot of people

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don't really know some of the

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terminology but it's basically what used

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to be called you know primitive or

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small-scale society religions tribal

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sorts of religions in Africa Native

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Americans and Oceania which is the

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Pacific region in general so the

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difference there is that with you know a

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couple hundred years of missionary

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activity more than a couple hundred

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going back to sort of 16th century

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missionary activity Explorer reports

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anthropology we have accounts of actual

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and E's from these different different

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societies so in this case I was able to

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look at the not just the content of the

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NDEs but how people interpreted them

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differently in each of these different

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kinds of regions I guess I would since

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you stopped

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I would interject that you know one of

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the things I think that will come up in

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this conversation a lot is that the

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carefulness and the wisdom that you show

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as an academic balanced with the

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curiosity that's driving you as someone

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who's fascinated with the NDE experience

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and how profound it is and I want to

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make sure that we kind of that I get

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that right that I'm not misrepresenting

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you because I'm throwing out something

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there that I don't know if you can't

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agree with but I think you know this is

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just a profound phenomenon you know that

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people experience the afterlife it gets

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it one of the fundamental questions that

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we've had through time you know does our

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consciousness exist so there's kind of

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this cool headedness and this methodical

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approach that comes through in your work

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that has to be there for you to answer

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some of these questions but I think I

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want people to understand that I feel

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from reading the book and looking at

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your research you are also just blown

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away at the implications at every turn

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of what this means if it falls one way I

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feel like you're kind of going hey I'm

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open to whatever it goes but if it falls

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this way the way it seems to be emerging

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this is huge do you have any thoughts on

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that yeah I think that's it's definitely

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the case I mean it's it's such an

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interesting and amazing topic with such

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huge implications that it's one of the

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few things that I can see sustaining my

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interest over all these years you know

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because I started doing this stuff and

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15 years ago or something maybe more now

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so part of what's been able to sustain

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the interest is looking at the different

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cultures and in all different areas of

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the world that's been great but also

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just that central core question not just

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how do different cultures interpret and

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experience and E's where religions based

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on NDE but underlying all that is you

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know of course the question of what RMD

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ease and and what is this what do these

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comparisons mean for the idea that NDEs

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could be actual evidence for life after

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death and that's been a you know that's

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a funny thing to tackle because i think

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as you said in the introduction they can

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be used cross-cultural Indies can be

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used for people on either side of the

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debate you know people who want to say

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that it's all hood

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Luke's inventory dying brain experience

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or that it's just entirely culturally

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constructed or it can you know be be

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used as evidence that you know this is a

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universal belief therefore it's a

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general genuine metaphysical kind of

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experience so I think even skeptics even

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angry skeptics that we've all run across

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because this is like you know such a

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basic human question survival after

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death people have this vested interest

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in it often they either want to believe

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really deeply or they really want to

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disbelieve and I actually am kind of in

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the middle still I mean that might sound

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disingenuous because I'd put so much

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time and effort and and energy and

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thought into this stuff but um but I do

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have one foot in either camp and and I'm

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not totally convinced of the things I

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wrote in the book but as far as like the

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end the science or whatever I still kind

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of keep a little bit of objectivity and

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and I think keeping a little bit of

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skepticism actually helps my research

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because um often I think when scholars

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do put their foot in one camp or another

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then their their research becomes a

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little bit less objective great well

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00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:27,290
that's something we may or may not

276
00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:32,000
explore but I want you to direct us

277
00:12:37,810 --> 00:12:33,910
where we should go next because there's

278
00:12:39,220 --> 00:12:37,820
this book is opens up a ton of questions

279
00:12:41,290 --> 00:12:39,230
as you read it if you're really

280
00:12:44,470 --> 00:12:41,300
interested in this field so I have some

281
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:44,480
categories methodology shamans and and

282
00:12:51,250 --> 00:12:48,610
pigeons versus other NDE research as

283
00:12:54,190 --> 00:12:51,260
meaning you know how does your research

284
00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:54,200
compare pros and cons of doing it the

285
00:12:59,410 --> 00:12:55,970
way that you approached it versus other

286
00:13:02,050 --> 00:12:59,420
ways religion which is kind of your

287
00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:02,060
bailiwick is to look not just at the

288
00:13:06,579 --> 00:13:04,250
experience but what it means in terms of

289
00:13:09,970 --> 00:13:06,589
creating new religions forming the

290
00:13:12,699 --> 00:13:09,980
religions in forming religions changing

291
00:13:14,110 --> 00:13:12,709
religions very interesting aspects to

292
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:14,120
the methodology come up their

293
00:13:18,850 --> 00:13:17,120
metaphysical neutrality that's where I'm

294
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:18,860
going to get into kind of really

295
00:13:23,860 --> 00:13:21,410
I don't know that the silliness it seems

296
00:13:27,190 --> 00:13:23,870
to me to even entertain that other

297
00:13:29,019 --> 00:13:27,200
position but we have to go there and

298
00:13:32,710 --> 00:13:29,029
then of course the accounts the ghost

299
00:13:34,570 --> 00:13:32,720
dance and then finally my topic is you

300
00:13:36,759 --> 00:13:34,580
know are we still as much as we're being

301
00:13:39,460 --> 00:13:36,769
open-minded and fair-minded are we

302
00:13:42,730 --> 00:13:39,470
broadly looking at all the data we can

303
00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:42,740
in terms of extended consciousness so

304
00:13:47,139 --> 00:13:44,570
for the benefit of those who haven't

305
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:47,149
seen watching this video I wanted to

306
00:13:52,030 --> 00:13:49,610
give you a give them an overview of the

307
00:13:54,490 --> 00:13:52,040
categories we might cover do you have

308
00:13:57,759 --> 00:13:54,500
anyone that you see there that interests

309
00:13:59,290 --> 00:13:57,769
you maybe it's best to get the

310
00:14:04,210 --> 00:13:59,300
methodology out of the way because

311
00:14:06,460 --> 00:14:04,220
that's kind of the most boring it's a

312
00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:06,470
necessary I don't I would say it's a

313
00:14:12,569 --> 00:14:08,570
necessary evil but it's a you know that

314
00:14:15,759 --> 00:14:12,579
in academic writing you have to discuss

315
00:14:17,620 --> 00:14:15,769
methodology to an extent that's not

316
00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:17,630
really that interesting to most people I

317
00:14:21,550 --> 00:14:20,000
don't think it's boring at all and I say

318
00:14:23,860 --> 00:14:21,560
you don't think it's boring to our

319
00:14:26,949 --> 00:14:23,870
listeners you know I posted in the

320
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:26,959
skeptical forum questions that people

321
00:14:31,900 --> 00:14:29,450
could post in advance and a lot of the

322
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:31,910
questions were methodology questions

323
00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:34,130
which I was really excited about because

324
00:14:39,730 --> 00:14:37,510
if you think about this field at all

325
00:14:41,410 --> 00:14:39,740
methodology to me is what immediately

326
00:14:44,139 --> 00:14:41,420
springs to mind well how did he do that

327
00:14:45,639 --> 00:14:44,149
know what you just said he took the

328
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:45,649
accounts of missionaries and explorers

329
00:14:50,889 --> 00:14:48,800
well we can discount those right off the

330
00:14:53,170 --> 00:14:50,899
bat right they're secondhand accounts

331
00:14:57,010 --> 00:14:53,180
and then we have this indigenous things

332
00:14:59,139 --> 00:14:57,020
so the way that you do that and a lot of

333
00:15:02,050 --> 00:14:59,149
it is good kind of blocking and tacking

334
00:15:04,210 --> 00:15:02,060
anthropology that you know is is really

335
00:15:07,510 --> 00:15:04,220
fascinating the other aspect that I hope

336
00:15:10,769 --> 00:15:07,520
you touch on here is you lean on a lot

337
00:15:12,939 --> 00:15:10,779
of prior research and you're really

338
00:15:14,319 --> 00:15:12,949
generous and acknowledging the work that

339
00:15:17,110 --> 00:15:14,329
other people have done but you also

340
00:15:18,819 --> 00:15:17,120
point out where you think some of that

341
00:15:21,310 --> 00:15:18,829
research might have taken us in the

342
00:15:23,769 --> 00:15:21,320
wrong direction in how we might look at

343
00:15:27,189 --> 00:15:23,779
it anew with a different kind of

344
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:27,199
perspective so please lay into it lots

345
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:32,290
of methodology ok yeah I mean with the

346
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:34,210
if I mentioned with the first book that

347
00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:36,010
methodology of trying to find cultural

348
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:37,510
independence and there was a little bit

349
00:15:42,870 --> 00:15:40,570
of that with this one you know African

350
00:15:44,910 --> 00:15:42,880
traditional religions religions of the

351
00:15:47,220 --> 00:15:44,920
Pacific and North America are pretty

352
00:15:49,890 --> 00:15:47,230
much entirely independent of each other

353
00:15:51,930 --> 00:15:49,900
so if we have similarities of NDEs in

354
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:51,940
each of those regions we can say that

355
00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:54,610
it's because you know they the myths

356
00:15:58,680 --> 00:15:56,560
travelled from one to the other so

357
00:16:00,930 --> 00:15:58,690
that's that's a non-starter right there

358
00:16:02,850 --> 00:16:00,940
that gets one whole argument out of the

359
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:02,860
way one one whole a reductionist

360
00:16:08,820 --> 00:16:06,130
explanation for what's going on but

361
00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:08,830
you're right the missionary Explorer and

362
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:12,310
even the early anthropology accounts you

363
00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:13,570
know we have to look at them with a

364
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:17,710
skeptical eye we can't just accept

365
00:16:23,790 --> 00:16:19,120
everything they say as a neutral

366
00:16:25,050 --> 00:16:23,800
statement of what really was said but at

367
00:16:28,590 --> 00:16:25,060
the same time that doesn't mean that

368
00:16:30,450 --> 00:16:28,600
they're all entirely made up by the

369
00:16:33,630 --> 00:16:30,460
missionaries and explorers and in early

370
00:16:38,340 --> 00:16:33,640
anthropologists what I found a lot of

371
00:16:42,210 --> 00:16:38,350
times is an account will be more or less

372
00:16:44,460 --> 00:16:42,220
neutrally recorded but with a lot of

373
00:16:47,310 --> 00:16:44,470
interjections on the part of the

374
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:47,320
missionary like you know they'll say

375
00:16:52,770 --> 00:16:50,530
this person claims to have died and

376
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:52,780
travelled to the underworld and and met

377
00:16:57,690 --> 00:16:56,290
this this one of their gods and blah

378
00:16:59,970 --> 00:16:57,700
blah blah and at the end they say of

379
00:17:02,700 --> 00:16:59,980
course this is the work of Satan and

380
00:17:06,569 --> 00:17:02,710
these people are you know need to be

381
00:17:08,550 --> 00:17:06,579
converted or whatever explorers were a

382
00:17:10,650 --> 00:17:08,560
little bit more neutral than the

383
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:10,660
missionaries but of course you know they

384
00:17:14,730 --> 00:17:12,850
had their agenda of wanting to report

385
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:14,740
what kind of resources there were and

386
00:17:19,170 --> 00:17:16,810
how to how to manage or exploit the

387
00:17:20,460 --> 00:17:19,180
local population so it so everyone had

388
00:17:23,550 --> 00:17:20,470
their agenda but that doesn't

389
00:17:26,130 --> 00:17:23,560
necessarily mean that all these accounts

390
00:17:27,329 --> 00:17:26,140
are just being made up by these well and

391
00:17:29,370 --> 00:17:27,339
that's what comes through in the book

392
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:29,380
because you start reading these accounts

393
00:17:33,420 --> 00:17:31,330
and you can see exactly what you're

394
00:17:35,100 --> 00:17:33,430
saying you can see an account that

395
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:35,110
clearly could only come from the

396
00:17:39,540 --> 00:17:37,450
experiencer couldn't have been added to

397
00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:39,550
in any way when I said you know I was

398
00:17:44,350 --> 00:17:42,190
taken by this coyote and we sailed

399
00:17:46,450 --> 00:17:44,360
across a creek you know and

400
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:46,460
met you know no one's making that up

401
00:17:51,250 --> 00:17:49,370
that's what the guy said so it is kind

402
00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:51,260
of interesting that how you can do this

403
00:17:56,860 --> 00:17:53,510
and that as you mentioned there's other

404
00:18:00,700 --> 00:17:56,870
ways that you look at it in terms of

405
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:00,710
well does it conform automatically to

406
00:18:05,289 --> 00:18:03,410
their prior beliefs does it change the

407
00:18:06,580 --> 00:18:05,299
beliefs of the group or the religion

408
00:18:08,590 --> 00:18:06,590
this is some of the deeper stuff you get

409
00:18:12,820 --> 00:18:08,600
into but it's fascinating fascinating

410
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:12,830
stuff things yeah and and there's also

411
00:18:18,940 --> 00:18:15,650
the it's there's a few NDEs that were

412
00:18:21,370 --> 00:18:18,950
repeated over time so one a missionary

413
00:18:22,659 --> 00:18:21,380
would report it 20 years later an

414
00:18:25,299 --> 00:18:22,669
anthropologist and then another

415
00:18:27,100 --> 00:18:25,309
anthropologist another 20 40 years later

416
00:18:29,650 --> 00:18:27,110
after that so it shows that there's

417
00:18:32,650 --> 00:18:29,660
consistency of these accounts over time

418
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:32,660
that you know they're they're not just

419
00:18:36,220 --> 00:18:34,010
being made up and it's also the case

420
00:18:39,810 --> 00:18:36,230
that you can check some of these beliefs

421
00:18:42,250 --> 00:18:39,820
with later anthropological reports and

422
00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:42,260
it's also important to remember that a

423
00:18:45,850 --> 00:18:44,510
lot of these traditions go back you know

424
00:18:47,830 --> 00:18:45,860
hundreds and hundreds of years it's not

425
00:18:49,780 --> 00:18:47,840
like suddenly the missionary or the

426
00:18:51,789 --> 00:18:49,790
anthropologist appeared and they're

427
00:18:55,230 --> 00:18:51,799
getting these stories that they're you

428
00:18:58,480 --> 00:18:55,240
know randomly reporting to the West it's

429
00:19:00,690 --> 00:18:58,490
they were already there so for a long

430
00:19:03,490 --> 00:19:00,700
time and also that a lot of the accounts

431
00:19:07,060 --> 00:19:03,500
we're supposed to have preceded the

432
00:19:08,830 --> 00:19:07,070
arrival of these these foreigners and go

433
00:19:10,750 --> 00:19:08,840
back you know dozens or hundreds of

434
00:19:13,620 --> 00:19:10,760
years and they've these Andes have

435
00:19:15,610 --> 00:19:13,630
become integrated into local mythology

436
00:19:17,650 --> 00:19:15,620
so that's another you know

437
00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:17,660
methodological conceptual difference

438
00:19:23,620 --> 00:19:21,049
with the first book is with with these

439
00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:23,630
accounts in the indigenous religions we

440
00:19:28,900 --> 00:19:26,510
have actual you know verbatim in some

441
00:19:31,030 --> 00:19:28,910
cases examples of people saying

442
00:19:33,130 --> 00:19:31,040
describing Indies that they had or that

443
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:33,140
somebody in their culture had and saying

444
00:19:38,140 --> 00:19:35,570
out right and this is how we know about

445
00:19:40,690 --> 00:19:38,150
the afterlife so this is no longer

446
00:19:43,710 --> 00:19:40,700
speculation that you know these

447
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:43,720
similarities to Indies suggest that

448
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:46,730
think beliefs were based on an Andy this

449
00:19:51,549 --> 00:19:48,650
is people actually saying our beliefs

450
00:19:55,450 --> 00:19:51,559
were based on myndy you know that might

451
00:19:57,190 --> 00:19:55,460
lead into another category so rather

452
00:19:58,120 --> 00:19:57,200
than you pick let me bring this up

453
00:20:01,480 --> 00:19:58,130
because I wanted to

454
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:01,490
about it and I think people are going to

455
00:20:07,090 --> 00:20:02,930
clue into this right away too and it's

456
00:20:10,660 --> 00:20:07,100
kind of an important topic to discuss

457
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:10,670
and that's in these accounts you're open

458
00:20:16,590 --> 00:20:13,520
that you can't always separate the

459
00:20:20,890 --> 00:20:16,600
shamanic experience or the drug-induced

460
00:20:22,660 --> 00:20:20,900
afterlife experience from the I don't

461
00:20:24,820 --> 00:20:22,670
know if you want to call it pure in the

462
00:20:26,650 --> 00:20:24,830
e experience so you're really open about

463
00:20:28,810 --> 00:20:26,660
that but hey this is a problem we don't

464
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:28,820
know and and you go one step further and

465
00:20:32,550 --> 00:20:30,290
say from the accounts that we have we

466
00:20:35,350 --> 00:20:32,560
can clearly see that these are

467
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:35,360
intertwined and in our mix and we don't

468
00:20:40,180 --> 00:20:37,730
even understand exactly what that means

469
00:20:43,090 --> 00:20:40,190
so what are some of the challenges that

470
00:20:48,570 --> 00:20:43,100
we face in terms of understanding this

471
00:20:51,730 --> 00:20:48,580
from a shamanic perspective the way I

472
00:20:53,950 --> 00:20:51,740
tried to pick it apart was and this is

473
00:20:55,540 --> 00:20:53,960
another methodological issue too is my

474
00:20:58,270 --> 00:20:55,550
definition of near-death experiences a

475
00:21:00,190 --> 00:20:58,280
rip rather not my definition of but what

476
00:21:04,740 --> 00:21:00,200
I considered to be and E's in the book

477
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:04,750
and rather than having a set of

478
00:21:11,290 --> 00:21:09,170
phenomenological elements to NDEs that

479
00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:11,300
are commonly cited in the West as this

480
00:21:16,420 --> 00:21:13,750
is a typical NDE you know I didn't say

481
00:21:19,810 --> 00:21:16,430
this is an NDE because it takes all

482
00:21:22,030 --> 00:21:19,820
these boxes I said this is an NDE

483
00:21:25,060 --> 00:21:22,040
if the person within the culture

484
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:25,070
considers it an NDE and obviously didn't

485
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:27,890
have the term Andy but if the account

486
00:21:31,540 --> 00:21:29,930
says this person died had this

487
00:21:34,420 --> 00:21:31,550
particular experience and came back to

488
00:21:37,690 --> 00:21:34,430
life then that count it isn't as an NDE

489
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:37,700
to me if the person and even bad I think

490
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:39,410
with all the controversy that's going on

491
00:21:43,630 --> 00:21:41,450
rum near-death experience in near-death

492
00:21:46,060 --> 00:21:43,640
experience science even those terms are

493
00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:46,070
highly highly charged right what does

494
00:21:51,220 --> 00:21:48,710
death mean you know we you can get to

495
00:21:53,260 --> 00:21:51,230
the mat with people about you know if

496
00:21:55,750 --> 00:21:53,270
they're not really dead because they had

497
00:21:56,860 --> 00:21:55,760
an NDE it means that they came back and

498
00:21:59,410 --> 00:21:56,870
you can get into all that kind of

499
00:22:01,450 --> 00:21:59,420
definition stuff but that's even more

500
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:01,460
the case here because here now you're

501
00:22:06,460 --> 00:22:03,890
getting into shamanic induced in the

502
00:22:09,070 --> 00:22:06,470
ease where we really can't even imagine

503
00:22:11,710 --> 00:22:09,080
that they really ever were clinically

504
00:22:13,779 --> 00:22:11,720
dead in a lot of these cases but if you

505
00:22:15,970 --> 00:22:13,789
just had some kind of extended

506
00:22:17,580 --> 00:22:15,980
consciousness experience but for very

507
00:22:20,830 --> 00:22:17,590
good reason like you just mentioned you

508
00:22:22,389 --> 00:22:20,840
had to throw those in or you chose to

509
00:22:25,419 --> 00:22:22,399
throw those in and say you know let's

510
00:22:28,330 --> 00:22:25,429
understand it from this kind of if they

511
00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:28,340
say it's a walk on the side of death

512
00:22:33,310 --> 00:22:30,529
good enough for me let's see where that

513
00:22:35,769 --> 00:22:33,320
takes me is that a fair assessment yeah

514
00:22:38,369 --> 00:22:35,779
I mean they don't necessarily have to

515
00:22:41,769 --> 00:22:38,379
have said died and came back to life but

516
00:22:44,230 --> 00:22:41,779
the person was in a physically

517
00:22:47,110 --> 00:22:44,240
compromised situation you know

518
00:22:50,619 --> 00:22:47,120
technically near death rather than you

519
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:50,629
know a claim of actual death grave

520
00:22:55,269 --> 00:22:53,210
illness or some kind of serious accident

521
00:22:58,389 --> 00:22:55,279
or near drowning those kind of things I

522
00:22:59,919 --> 00:22:58,399
counted if they didn't have any context

523
00:23:02,560 --> 00:22:59,929
at all like that I considered it a

524
00:23:04,810 --> 00:23:02,570
vision self-induce shamanic vision but

525
00:23:08,379 --> 00:23:04,820
well you're talking about where the gray

526
00:23:11,590 --> 00:23:08,389
area lies is when they're shamanic

527
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:11,600
practices that compromise the the

528
00:23:15,419 --> 00:23:14,090
physical body and lead to an NDE so

529
00:23:18,430 --> 00:23:15,429
there's some where they you know

530
00:23:22,629 --> 00:23:18,440
literally would Club themselves to death

531
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:22,639
in order to bring about an NDE beyond

532
00:23:28,419 --> 00:23:25,370
even clubbing themselves maybe I'm wrong

533
00:23:31,149 --> 00:23:28,429
so correct me here but I read that you

534
00:23:33,009 --> 00:23:31,159
know there's people that and again it

535
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:33,019
plays right into I think one of the

536
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:35,090
conclusions if I can say that of your

537
00:23:41,950 --> 00:23:37,970
book is that the near-death experiences

538
00:23:44,049 --> 00:23:41,960
that are really profound and significant

539
00:23:46,659 --> 00:23:44,059
in terms of a culture would a lot of

540
00:23:49,450 --> 00:23:46,669
times make the shaman then want to

541
00:23:52,299 --> 00:23:49,460
experience it and try anything they

542
00:23:54,789 --> 00:23:52,309
could to go on that death journey so

543
00:23:57,039 --> 00:23:54,799
yeah lobbying is one aspect of it but

544
00:23:59,860 --> 00:23:57,049
however I can get there whether it's not

545
00:24:02,169 --> 00:23:59,870
sleeping drumming and the engines

546
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:02,179
there's a journey there you took it I

547
00:24:09,310 --> 00:24:04,850
want to take it yeah yeah clubbing is an

548
00:24:11,230 --> 00:24:09,320
extreme example okay there's also one

549
00:24:12,669 --> 00:24:11,240
where they claim they lit themselves on

550
00:24:15,909 --> 00:24:12,679
fire and you know some of these I think

551
00:24:17,789 --> 00:24:15,919
have to be taken in the kind of context

552
00:24:20,259 --> 00:24:17,799
of these things are all mythologized

553
00:24:20,860 --> 00:24:20,269
oftentimes so I don't think people

554
00:24:22,930 --> 00:24:20,870
probably

555
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:22,940
really did light themselves on fire to

556
00:24:28,570 --> 00:24:24,770
have an indie but yeah the more usual

557
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:28,580
ways are you know drumming and dancing

558
00:24:34,450 --> 00:24:30,650
and singing to the point of exhaustion

559
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:34,460
and collapse drug use and things like

560
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:36,890
that so and and a lot of cases it

561
00:24:43,810 --> 00:24:41,690
overtly is intended to replicate the NDE

562
00:24:45,370 --> 00:24:43,820
that somebody else within their society

563
00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:45,380
had and that's what the Ghost Dance

564
00:24:49,540 --> 00:24:48,110
really was all about and the you know

565
00:24:53,500 --> 00:24:49,550
all these other ghost fans type of

566
00:24:55,299 --> 00:24:53,510
religions which also occur in in the

567
00:24:58,240 --> 00:24:55,309
Pacific region as well with kind of

568
00:25:01,060 --> 00:24:58,250
similar dynamics behind them about you

569
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:01,070
know responses to cultural domination

570
00:25:08,980 --> 00:25:05,650
and either you know resistance against

571
00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:08,990
you know Western influence resistance

572
00:25:15,130 --> 00:25:11,600
against Christianity or alternately

573
00:25:17,169 --> 00:25:15,140
embracing it well you mentioned Ghost

574
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:17,179
Dance so I thought we might go there and

575
00:25:21,669 --> 00:25:18,890
I think the way that you brought it up

576
00:25:24,669 --> 00:25:21,679
is is really important because it does

577
00:25:28,180 --> 00:25:24,679
get back to this methodology kind of

578
00:25:30,010 --> 00:25:28,190
thing in that well first you ought to

579
00:25:31,419 --> 00:25:30,020
describe what the Ghost Dance is but I

580
00:25:34,930 --> 00:25:31,429
want to emphasize that point that you

581
00:25:36,340 --> 00:25:34,940
just made is that it's hard not to see

582
00:25:40,750 --> 00:25:36,350
the Ghost Dance

583
00:25:44,350 --> 00:25:40,760
as being a direct result of the NDE

584
00:25:46,570 --> 00:25:44,360
experience and then that just leads to a

585
00:25:49,330 --> 00:25:46,580
whole bunch of questions well what does

586
00:25:51,780 --> 00:25:49,340
that mean about how these religions

587
00:25:54,430 --> 00:25:51,790
really were formed maintained and

588
00:25:58,990 --> 00:25:54,440
energized and enlivened you know what

589
00:26:00,850 --> 00:25:59,000
was it all about in de I think some of

590
00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:00,860
these Ghost Dance type or religions

591
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:02,809
really were I mean they it's interesting

592
00:26:07,510 --> 00:26:05,330
because these things have been studied

593
00:26:12,060 --> 00:26:07,520
since the 19th century when you know

594
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:12,070
when they were actually happening and

595
00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:15,650
most of the focus has been on the social

596
00:26:20,140 --> 00:26:18,080
and political dimensions about you know

597
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:20,150
response to Christianity in response to

598
00:26:22,870 --> 00:26:21,650
threat and that's that's how they've

599
00:26:25,950 --> 00:26:22,880
been studied in various parts of the

600
00:26:28,210 --> 00:26:25,960
world and and it's true that that's how

601
00:26:30,310 --> 00:26:28,220
that is one of the main reasons they

602
00:26:32,260 --> 00:26:30,320
come into being as a new religion that's

603
00:26:33,490 --> 00:26:32,270
revitalise they're called religious

604
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:33,500
revitalization

605
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:35,930
and basically it's the appear during

606
00:26:42,670 --> 00:26:38,570
times of threat from other kind of

607
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:42,680
cultural dominance or some other kind of

608
00:26:47,830 --> 00:26:45,650
external threat usually in the Pacific

609
00:26:49,180 --> 00:26:47,840
there's one called the kerreri movement

610
00:26:49,990 --> 00:26:49,190
and that was in response to a disease

611
00:26:51,580 --> 00:26:50,000
epidemic

612
00:26:53,380 --> 00:26:51,590
so it's whenever there's some kind of

613
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:53,390
threat and what's interesting about it

614
00:26:58,570 --> 00:26:55,490
is because most of the time more often

615
00:27:01,120 --> 00:26:58,580
than not they're grounded in an MDE or

616
00:27:03,340 --> 00:27:01,130
at least in a claim of an NDE so

617
00:27:05,410 --> 00:27:03,350
somebody has claims to have had a

618
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:05,420
near-death experience comes back and

619
00:27:10,660 --> 00:27:08,690
says I was told by you know this entity

620
00:27:13,620 --> 00:27:10,670
in the afterlife that we need to change

621
00:27:16,750 --> 00:27:13,630
our ways that we need to you know stop

622
00:27:20,830 --> 00:27:16,760
beating our lives or we need to stop

623
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:20,840
using Western weapons and farming

624
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:23,330
equipment or whatever or conversely we

625
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:24,410
need to convert to Christianity

626
00:27:29,950 --> 00:27:27,290
Christianity and these problems will be

627
00:27:33,790 --> 00:27:29,960
resolved and what's interesting theme

628
00:27:36,130 --> 00:27:33,800
Attica Lee is like an NDE is it's death

629
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:36,140
and rebirth and one of the main themes

630
00:27:40,210 --> 00:27:38,330
of when somebody comes back from an NDE

631
00:27:43,630 --> 00:27:40,220
their renewed they have this whole you

632
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:43,640
know spiritual renaissance sometimes

633
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:45,530
they claim to have new abilities and it

634
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:47,810
really changes their lives so what's

635
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:49,490
happening and these new religious

636
00:27:55,870 --> 00:27:51,370
movements as that is them being

637
00:27:58,180 --> 00:27:55,880
outwardly focused upon the whole society

638
00:28:00,940 --> 00:27:58,190
at large so the whole society is that

639
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:00,950
benefiting in theory from this one

640
00:28:06,910 --> 00:28:04,490
person's NDE you know wanting the whole

641
00:28:10,630 --> 00:28:06,920
society to become reborn and renewed and

642
00:28:13,270 --> 00:28:10,640
revitalized and that's tricky and thorny

643
00:28:16,860 --> 00:28:13,280
as you just mentioned what comes through

644
00:28:19,390 --> 00:28:16,870
in the book and in your research is that

645
00:28:24,220 --> 00:28:19,400
sorting and sifting through that and

646
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:24,230
looking at the anomalies isn't quite the

647
00:28:30,180 --> 00:28:26,690
right word but the cases where people

648
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:30,190
come back with beliefs that are directly

649
00:28:35,820 --> 00:28:32,450
contradictory to what the current

650
00:28:40,570 --> 00:28:35,830
religious beliefs are and yet are so

651
00:28:42,550 --> 00:28:40,580
influential so powerful that they caused

652
00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:42,560
the culture to change or they definitely

653
00:28:46,810 --> 00:28:44,480
caused that person to change and the way

654
00:28:47,289 --> 00:28:46,820
that that person changes causes other

655
00:28:49,419 --> 00:28:47,299
people

656
00:28:53,049 --> 00:28:49,429
the change so there's always going to be

657
00:28:55,749 --> 00:28:53,059
these cultural overlays and then even

658
00:29:00,460 --> 00:28:55,759
the social engineering you know we just

659
00:29:02,799 --> 00:29:00,470
had a wonderful gentleman and a few

660
00:29:06,580 --> 00:29:02,809
episodes go and anthropologist Brian

661
00:29:08,649 --> 00:29:06,590
Hayden who did this work on the self

662
00:29:10,779 --> 00:29:08,659
aggrandizement right so it's like hey I

663
00:29:13,149 --> 00:29:10,789
went to the other side too when you know

664
00:29:15,460 --> 00:29:13,159
that he said I should be able to sleep

665
00:29:17,499 --> 00:29:15,470
with your wife and all the other women

666
00:29:19,539 --> 00:29:17,509
that I choose to that's what they said

667
00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:19,549
hey that is always in play there's

668
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:20,960
always going to be people that are going

669
00:29:27,190 --> 00:29:23,570
to do that so what interest me more are

670
00:29:30,549 --> 00:29:27,200
these cases where we can't give those

671
00:29:32,889 --> 00:29:30,559
kind of explanations we can't provide

672
00:29:35,710 --> 00:29:32,899
that that doesn't really fill in the gap

673
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:35,720
so any thoughts on that yeah there's

674
00:29:40,239 --> 00:29:38,090
there's a good Native American example

675
00:29:42,039 --> 00:29:40,249
of that I'm a caring member the the

676
00:29:43,450 --> 00:29:42,049
person's name but you know there was

677
00:29:46,090 --> 00:29:43,460
this big explosion of ghost dance

678
00:29:51,129 --> 00:29:46,100
religion starting with wool VOCA who was

679
00:29:54,639 --> 00:29:51,139
a peyote shaman late 19th century then

680
00:29:56,529 --> 00:29:54,649
there was a bianchi who who's on the his

681
00:30:00,039 --> 00:29:56,539
n de vision that he drew was on the

682
00:30:02,470 --> 00:30:00,049
cover of the new book and he went to see

683
00:30:05,830 --> 00:30:02,480
will oka and he you know he had his own

684
00:30:08,619 --> 00:30:05,840
NDE vision it was not not clearly in a

685
00:30:12,369 --> 00:30:08,629
you know a near-death context but he had

686
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:12,379
a vision after praying and fasting and

687
00:30:15,580 --> 00:30:13,970
then he went to see well okay and he

688
00:30:17,799 --> 00:30:15,590
didn't believe where he said he was

689
00:30:21,399 --> 00:30:17,809
completely disappointed and he said you

690
00:30:23,409 --> 00:30:21,409
know this this guy is a sham or whatever

691
00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:23,419
but then there's another guy who's the

692
00:30:28,119 --> 00:30:25,129
one whose name I can't recall the moment

693
00:30:30,909 --> 00:30:28,129
who I'm claimed to have had an NDE and

694
00:30:33,940 --> 00:30:30,919
then just basically exploited people

695
00:30:35,979 --> 00:30:33,950
around him and it was things like you

696
00:30:37,989 --> 00:30:35,989
know sleep with your wife you have to

697
00:30:39,820 --> 00:30:37,999
give me some money whatever it was and

698
00:30:42,340 --> 00:30:39,830
and it turned out you know later he he

699
00:30:44,349 --> 00:30:42,350
did he was arrested and I think he later

700
00:30:47,619 --> 00:30:44,359
confessed that it was all all a scam

701
00:30:50,349 --> 00:30:47,629
anyway but that isn't always the case

702
00:30:54,879 --> 00:30:50,359
they don't know I said that definitely

703
00:30:56,769 --> 00:30:54,889
not and you know and and I think it's

704
00:30:57,390 --> 00:30:56,779
that's one of the main you know another

705
00:30:59,010 --> 00:30:57,400
problem

706
00:31:02,730 --> 00:30:59,020
this kind of research is disentangling

707
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:02,740
what accounts are real in the represent

708
00:31:10,050 --> 00:31:04,810
actual and E's and which ones are either

709
00:31:12,810 --> 00:31:10,060
opportunistic or just seeing the success

710
00:31:14,010 --> 00:31:12,820
of a different person who started their

711
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:14,020
religion and wanting to emulate that

712
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:16,810
maybe not for opportunistic reasons but

713
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:19,090
just as a genuine way to you know

714
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:22,890
improve your society so I think that's a

715
00:31:27,950 --> 00:31:26,410
very thorny thing to try to beg and I

716
00:31:30,810 --> 00:31:27,960
don't think there's any way to really

717
00:31:33,210 --> 00:31:30,820
completely say whether somebody's in de

718
00:31:36,900 --> 00:31:33,220
account was was an actual historic thing

719
00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:36,910
or not great where do you think we might

720
00:31:42,990 --> 00:31:39,840
want to go next

721
00:31:46,620 --> 00:31:44,490
maybe I should say something under this

722
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:46,630
this counts under the account section

723
00:31:54,570 --> 00:31:51,850
but you know should should say one of

724
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:54,580
the the main things about this this

725
00:31:58,740 --> 00:31:57,250
research has been and you touched on it

726
00:32:02,040 --> 00:31:58,750
at the beginning in your introduction is

727
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:02,050
is the differences between NDE accounts

728
00:32:08,060 --> 00:32:05,370
so it's not just a difference between

729
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:08,070
the different religions and and

730
00:32:12,930 --> 00:32:10,690
different ideas about the afterlife but

731
00:32:18,180 --> 00:32:12,940
it's the actual and bees themselves

732
00:32:20,790 --> 00:32:18,190
could be vastly different so and that's

733
00:32:22,980 --> 00:32:20,800
one of the key things that that skeptics

734
00:32:25,710 --> 00:32:22,990
use to say you know well how come and

735
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:25,720
E's be evidence of an eighth of an

736
00:32:35,790 --> 00:32:33,930
to which I would reply why did well

737
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:35,800
indeed why would everyone's afterlife

738
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:37,450
have to be the same for there to be an

739
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:39,610
afterlife and I take that one step

740
00:32:43,410 --> 00:32:41,410
further I'd say you know the book just

741
00:32:45,510 --> 00:32:43,420
without even kind of addressing that

742
00:32:47,010 --> 00:32:45,520
which i think is it's an important

743
00:32:48,780 --> 00:32:47,020
question but when you dig into a little

744
00:32:51,540 --> 00:32:48,790
bit it's kind of a silly question and

745
00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:51,550
the silliness is the accounts themselves

746
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:53,440
you know I have a few up there that I

747
00:32:56,940 --> 00:32:55,330
put on the screen and I don't know if

748
00:32:58,710 --> 00:32:56,950
you can recall those HUF to top your

749
00:33:03,030 --> 00:32:58,720
head cuz yeah I'm sure your friend it's

750
00:33:05,940 --> 00:33:03,040
floating in your head but there are you

751
00:33:08,910 --> 00:33:05,950
you read these accounts and let me pull

752
00:33:10,170 --> 00:33:08,920
up one of them if I can well I'll just

753
00:33:11,730 --> 00:33:10,180
say well you're doing that

754
00:33:13,769 --> 00:33:11,740
you know the idea that

755
00:33:17,580 --> 00:33:13,779
kind of I in the background of a lot of

756
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:17,590
this for me is that you know the way to

757
00:33:22,860 --> 00:33:19,450
explain these cross-cultural differences

758
00:33:27,389 --> 00:33:22,870
is not to ignore the similarities but to

759
00:33:31,430 --> 00:33:27,399
look at them side-by-side so what I mean

760
00:33:35,370 --> 00:33:31,440
by that is what the way I see it is that

761
00:33:38,909 --> 00:33:35,380
an NDE is essentially like a triggering

762
00:33:40,830 --> 00:33:38,919
event which has these you know I don't

763
00:33:43,169 --> 00:33:40,840
know the neuro physiological or

764
00:33:44,549 --> 00:33:43,179
metaphysical structure or or system

765
00:33:48,779 --> 00:33:44,559
behind it but what seems to be going on

766
00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:48,789
is there's this event which has this set

767
00:33:56,490 --> 00:33:53,679
of very similar somatic experiences that

768
00:33:58,950 --> 00:33:56,500
it causes and because each of us you

769
00:34:01,169 --> 00:33:58,960
know I was a particular individual in a

770
00:34:03,620 --> 00:34:01,179
particular culture we experienced those

771
00:34:07,380 --> 00:34:03,630
events in ways that are relevant and

772
00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:07,390
specific to our culture let me read one

773
00:34:12,570 --> 00:34:09,790
such account and I think it builds on

774
00:34:15,060 --> 00:34:12,580
what you're saying so this is from North

775
00:34:17,099 --> 00:34:15,070
America and SUNY these are the Southwest

776
00:34:18,990 --> 00:34:17,109
people right that you you drive through

777
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:19,000
Arizona and you see Arizona New Mexico

778
00:34:25,409 --> 00:34:22,810
in 1928 a woman died of measles and saw

779
00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:25,419
a quote-unquote bright light in the room

780
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:27,760
and left her body she traveled westward

781
00:34:32,070 --> 00:34:29,440
to meet her deceased grandfather and

782
00:34:34,530 --> 00:34:32,080
aunts quote/unquote still living the way

783
00:34:36,750 --> 00:34:34,540
we do the experience not only resulted

784
00:34:38,490 --> 00:34:36,760
in a change in woman's own beliefs I

785
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:38,500
never believed that it could happen but

786
00:34:42,690 --> 00:34:40,510
it really did but she was thereafter

787
00:34:45,149 --> 00:34:42,700
made a healer and a member of the

788
00:34:47,579 --> 00:34:45,159
Medicine Society furthermore her

789
00:34:50,220 --> 00:34:47,589
experience was inconsistent with soonly

790
00:34:52,530 --> 00:34:50,230
afterlife conceptions in which the dead

791
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:52,540
remain with their body for four days

792
00:34:58,079 --> 00:34:55,330
change shape become the wind or enter

793
00:34:59,640 --> 00:34:58,089
the lake of what is it Kachins Kachinas

794
00:35:02,130 --> 00:34:59,650
oh yeah Kachinas of course the little

795
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:02,140
dolls or into the lake of Kachinas this

796
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:03,970
suggests that the experience was largely

797
00:35:09,750 --> 00:35:07,530
independent of its cultural context so

798
00:35:11,220 --> 00:35:09,760
this kind of pulls together a lot of

799
00:35:13,290 --> 00:35:11,230
things that we're talking about but

800
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:13,300
maybe you want to expound on that but I

801
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:15,250
think anyone listening to that good hey

802
00:35:20,460 --> 00:35:17,290
you know what I really feel like I could

803
00:35:22,710 --> 00:35:20,470
pull something out of that yeah that I

804
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:22,720
didn't know before that's such a great

805
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:24,970
example - it's concise it

806
00:35:29,339 --> 00:35:27,210
it has so you know hits so many of the

807
00:35:31,859 --> 00:35:29,349
you know ideas that are behind what's

808
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:31,869
going on here so she changed her beliefs

809
00:35:36,900 --> 00:35:35,050
she became a religious leader they were

810
00:35:39,180 --> 00:35:36,910
inconsistent with Zuni beliefs

811
00:35:41,070 --> 00:35:39,190
pre-existing which shows that this is an

812
00:35:44,910 --> 00:35:41,080
experience which is not generated just

813
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:44,920
by culture so it's yeah it's a it's a

814
00:35:50,790 --> 00:35:48,250
really good example and and it's uh it

815
00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:50,800
shows exactly the kind of thing that I'm

816
00:35:55,740 --> 00:35:52,480
talking about but you know it's it's

817
00:35:57,900 --> 00:35:55,750
also there are still people out there

818
00:35:59,730 --> 00:35:57,910
who were fighting tooth and nail to say

819
00:36:02,000 --> 00:35:59,740
these are entirely culturally

820
00:36:05,609 --> 00:36:02,010
linguistically generated experiences so

821
00:36:07,530 --> 00:36:05,619
well what do you know that's not good

822
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:07,540
that's not going to change its that it

823
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:09,490
changes by funeral my funeral kind of

824
00:36:15,380 --> 00:36:11,290
thing yeah the thing is I mean I'm not

825
00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:15,390
again it's it's not a case of are these

826
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:17,710
experiences evidence of the afterlife

827
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:19,330
you know we can talk about about that

828
00:36:25,020 --> 00:36:21,330
later but it's a separate question of

829
00:36:26,970 --> 00:36:25,030
are they an experience to begin with I

830
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:26,980
mean some people just completely deny

831
00:36:33,450 --> 00:36:29,760
that this kind of post modernist

832
00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:33,460
constructivist approach they deny that

833
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:35,710
it that the accounts actually referred

834
00:36:40,020 --> 00:36:37,930
to an actual experience which you know

835
00:36:42,359 --> 00:36:40,030
is basically just saying all of our

836
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:42,369
sources are lying there making stuff up

837
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:43,690
because they're part of their culture

838
00:36:48,930 --> 00:36:46,810
which is not you know why why even be an

839
00:36:50,190 --> 00:36:48,940
anthropologist or a scholar is religion

840
00:36:52,349 --> 00:36:50,200
if you're not gonna believe what your

841
00:36:53,910 --> 00:36:52,359
sources say well you know that's the

842
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:53,920
other thing that's really cool about

843
00:36:58,980 --> 00:36:56,650
what falls out of this really broad

844
00:37:01,200 --> 00:36:58,990
approach that you take of indigenous

845
00:37:04,050 --> 00:37:01,210
cultures you go from North America then

846
00:37:07,050 --> 00:37:04,060
you jump over to Africa and what I was

847
00:37:09,359 --> 00:37:07,060
kind of kind of blown away with is so

848
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:09,369
you turn the page and you get to Africa

849
00:37:15,060 --> 00:37:12,970
and now as you say things are a lot

850
00:37:17,430 --> 00:37:15,070
different when we have the problem that

851
00:37:19,980 --> 00:37:17,440
Africa is a big continent you know we

852
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:19,990
can't make a lot of generalizations but

853
00:37:24,570 --> 00:37:21,690
we can start to make some

854
00:37:26,940 --> 00:37:24,580
generalizations and we see that it's a

855
00:37:29,339 --> 00:37:26,950
different game it for one thing the

856
00:37:31,980 --> 00:37:29,349
fluidity isn't there you know the North

857
00:37:34,620 --> 00:37:31,990
American indigenous people are pretty

858
00:37:37,210 --> 00:37:34,630
open lot you know stuff comes along and

859
00:37:39,790 --> 00:37:37,220
they go oh okay we have to change or

860
00:37:42,010 --> 00:37:39,800
the one shaman says which I thought was

861
00:37:43,839 --> 00:37:42,020
quite beautiful he goes you know I guess

862
00:37:45,460 --> 00:37:43,849
it really shows that we don't know you

863
00:37:47,020 --> 00:37:45,470
know we just have to listen to these

864
00:37:49,330 --> 00:37:47,030
people that have been there because I

865
00:37:51,940 --> 00:37:49,340
haven't been there he's been there I

866
00:37:54,609 --> 00:37:51,950
take his word for it yeah what I what I

867
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:54,619
read into the African uh-uh and it's not

868
00:37:58,240 --> 00:37:56,330
across the board because you do a great

869
00:38:00,520 --> 00:37:58,250
job of teasing out some important

870
00:38:02,589 --> 00:38:00,530
accounts from these different African

871
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:02,599
traditions but it's a little bit harder

872
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:05,330
because it's it's it's more kind of an

873
00:38:13,540 --> 00:38:11,570
entrenched a religious 'ti yet some of

874
00:38:16,089 --> 00:38:13,550
the patterns still come through which is

875
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:16,099
what's so enormous ly valuable about

876
00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:18,410
your research yeah thanks

877
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:20,510
yeah that's definitely the case so it's

878
00:38:26,140 --> 00:38:23,930
it's not a case that you know in Africa

879
00:38:28,410 --> 00:38:26,150
they didn't have any ease and Native

880
00:38:31,690 --> 00:38:28,420
Americans did have them it's a case of

881
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:31,700
not just that the experiences themselves

882
00:38:35,170 --> 00:38:32,570
are different but how they're

883
00:38:39,700 --> 00:38:35,180
interpreted by the societies by the

884
00:38:42,460 --> 00:38:39,710
cultures very really widely you know

885
00:38:45,810 --> 00:38:42,470
it's easier to generalize about Native

886
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:45,820
Americans than it is about Africans

887
00:38:49,990 --> 00:38:48,770
there are a few examples in with Native

888
00:38:51,940 --> 00:38:50,000
Americans like some people say well we

889
00:38:53,380 --> 00:38:51,950
don't have any afterlife beliefs because

890
00:38:55,870 --> 00:38:53,390
nobody's ever been there so how should

891
00:38:59,020 --> 00:38:55,880
we know kind of the reverse of the guy

892
00:39:00,880 --> 00:38:59,030
you were mentioning some of them you

893
00:39:03,099 --> 00:39:00,890
know just just actively disbelief but

894
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:03,109
those are really rare and African

895
00:39:11,220 --> 00:39:07,250
societies they come from you know just

896
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:11,230
find I have the figures here somewhere

897
00:39:17,050 --> 00:39:13,970
just to kind of put a general context of

898
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:17,060
the whole thing for Native Americans I

899
00:39:23,020 --> 00:39:21,290
found 70 MDEs or references to Indies

900
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:23,030
you know in a historical context and

901
00:39:27,970 --> 00:39:25,490
that's specifically accounts where

902
00:39:29,349 --> 00:39:27,980
somebody a dieter came near death so

903
00:39:32,470 --> 00:39:29,359
that's not even counting the shamanic

904
00:39:35,829 --> 00:39:32,480
experiences out of those there were 20

905
00:39:40,030 --> 00:39:35,839
where they said our afterlife beliefs

906
00:39:44,109 --> 00:39:40,040
were based on these experiences Africa

907
00:39:45,790 --> 00:39:44,119
there were 10 and E's altogether and to

908
00:39:49,420 --> 00:39:45,800
saying that they based their experiences

909
00:39:50,450 --> 00:39:49,430
on them and there are a few reasons for

910
00:39:51,710 --> 00:39:50,460
that and

911
00:39:54,020 --> 00:39:51,720
you know we that's kind of like an

912
00:39:57,620 --> 00:39:54,030
all-day discussion but just to kind of

913
00:39:59,750 --> 00:39:57,630
put it in a nutshell burial practices

914
00:40:01,940 --> 00:39:59,760
are a factor because African burial

915
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:01,950
practice is by and large didn't really

916
00:40:05,780 --> 00:40:03,690
allow for somebody to come back to life

917
00:40:11,210 --> 00:40:05,790
they were they were very concerned with

918
00:40:14,230 --> 00:40:11,220
preventing angry ancestor spirits from

919
00:40:18,829 --> 00:40:14,240
coming and taking possession of the body

920
00:40:20,810 --> 00:40:18,839
so if a body rose after being dead they

921
00:40:22,550 --> 00:40:20,820
didn't think oh my relative has come

922
00:40:25,099 --> 00:40:22,560
back let's go shower them with praise

923
00:40:27,859 --> 00:40:25,109
and and welcome em they thought of that

924
00:40:29,660 --> 00:40:27,869
person is possessed essentially a zombie

925
00:40:32,140 --> 00:40:29,670
you know this this is like a danger to

926
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:32,150
society so first of all they would take

927
00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:34,650
you know preemptive pre-emptive steps

928
00:40:40,070 --> 00:40:37,710
towards that happening so binding the

929
00:40:43,970 --> 00:40:40,080
corpse sometimes they would just serve

930
00:40:46,579 --> 00:40:43,980
them out to animals to be eaten they

931
00:40:49,670 --> 00:40:46,589
didn't go through as many efforts to

932
00:40:51,589 --> 00:40:49,680
bring somebody back from from dying as

933
00:40:54,970 --> 00:40:51,599
Native Americans might or or in the

934
00:40:59,300 --> 00:40:54,980
Pacific so already there's a sort of

935
00:41:01,760 --> 00:40:59,310
physical factor in in fewer African

936
00:41:04,339 --> 00:41:01,770
Indian he's being reported and then on

937
00:41:05,750 --> 00:41:04,349
top of that there rather than like you

938
00:41:08,089 --> 00:41:05,760
know and with Native Americans they had

939
00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:08,099
this whole shamanic Vision Quest culture

940
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:11,250
going back so so it's you know part of

941
00:41:15,470 --> 00:41:12,930
built into the culture to have

942
00:41:18,740 --> 00:41:15,480
experiences like Andy he's or whatever

943
00:41:22,570 --> 00:41:18,750
other kind of you know visionary

944
00:41:25,790 --> 00:41:22,580
experiences African religions were often

945
00:41:27,859 --> 00:41:25,800
more concerned with sorcery they

946
00:41:30,290 --> 00:41:27,869
believed that the ancestors were living

947
00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:30,300
nearby and the villager in the forest

948
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:31,920
some of them were benevolent some of

949
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:34,530
them were malevolent so a lot of it was

950
00:41:41,770 --> 00:41:37,970
managing these kinds of possibly

951
00:41:44,740 --> 00:41:41,780
malevolent forces on the society

952
00:41:48,770 --> 00:41:44,750
witchcraft and sorcery were all kind of

953
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:48,780
preoccupations a lot of it was more you

954
00:41:52,430 --> 00:41:50,490
know this worldly what's what's going to

955
00:41:55,099 --> 00:41:52,440
happen to us right now right here and

956
00:41:56,599 --> 00:41:55,109
not really much speculation about what's

957
00:41:59,060 --> 00:41:56,609
going to happen in the beyond it just

958
00:42:01,160 --> 00:41:59,070
wasn't really that relevant to you know

959
00:42:02,670 --> 00:42:01,170
their life experience so they were just

960
00:42:04,890 --> 00:42:02,680
kind of negotiating

961
00:42:07,230 --> 00:42:04,900
these things in a very different way see

962
00:42:10,350 --> 00:42:07,240
that's that's so awesome

963
00:42:14,340 --> 00:42:10,360
and fascinating and I guess I want

964
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:14,350
people to appreciate how our entire

965
00:42:18,990 --> 00:42:17,410
perspective changes when you look at it

966
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:19,000
through the lens that you've looked at

967
00:42:22,590 --> 00:42:21,010
it through so you're standing on the

968
00:42:25,830 --> 00:42:22,600
shoulders of a lot of awesome people

969
00:42:28,110 --> 00:42:25,840
who've done awesome work but you can see

970
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:28,120
how they would totally I have to say

971
00:42:34,110 --> 00:42:30,610
misinterpret all that if they weren't

972
00:42:36,470 --> 00:42:34,120
considering the reality or if you want

973
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:36,480
to say potential reality of a real

974
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:40,810
afterlife that came with it a certain

975
00:42:48,140 --> 00:42:45,970
set of experiences that are are real you

976
00:42:50,550 --> 00:42:48,150
know I did an interview with this woman

977
00:42:53,970 --> 00:42:50,560
Jan Vanessa Stein who wrote this amazing

978
00:42:56,070 --> 00:42:53,980
book and studied the shamanic people of

979
00:42:57,540 --> 00:42:56,080
Siberia for the longest time and just to

980
00:42:58,950 --> 00:42:57,550
highlight the differences you know I

981
00:43:01,560 --> 00:42:58,960
asked her some of these questions and

982
00:43:04,610 --> 00:43:01,570
she says oh no they never try and

983
00:43:07,380 --> 00:43:04,620
contact the spirit world or the deceased

984
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:07,390
what everybody does that beautiful no

985
00:43:12,690 --> 00:43:09,310
their religious belief is that you're

986
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:12,700
not supposed to disturb them we can't

987
00:43:16,890 --> 00:43:14,530
say whether that's true or not but as

988
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:16,900
you're just saying how wouldn't that

989
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:19,810
then inform the experiences that you

990
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:22,570
would have and but independent of

991
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:24,370
whether people then have those

992
00:43:27,630 --> 00:43:25,930
experiences they come back there might

993
00:43:30,870 --> 00:43:27,640
be less likely to talk about those

994
00:43:32,940 --> 00:43:30,880
experiences so it's only when we take

995
00:43:35,460 --> 00:43:32,950
the step that you've taken kindred that

996
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:35,470
we can begin to kind of understand this

997
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:37,810
stuff again yeah yeah and I mean there's

998
00:43:44,910 --> 00:43:41,410
examples from Africa that somebody

999
00:43:47,190 --> 00:43:44,920
coming back from from the Dead reviving

1000
00:43:48,810 --> 00:43:47,200
from an Indian and you know having

1001
00:43:51,210 --> 00:43:48,820
stones thrown at them and things like

1002
00:43:52,770 --> 00:43:51,220
that so yeah if you have an NDE you're

1003
00:43:55,380 --> 00:43:52,780
gonna keep quiet about it for the most

1004
00:43:56,460 --> 00:43:55,390
part in cultures like that I guess I

1005
00:43:58,470 --> 00:43:56,470
should just say a little about the

1006
00:44:01,590 --> 00:43:58,480
Pacific what we're here and that's a

1007
00:44:04,110 --> 00:44:01,600
what's interesting there is Polynesians

1008
00:44:07,230 --> 00:44:04,120
and Melanesians followed more along the

1009
00:44:12,190 --> 00:44:07,240
native-american lines there were you

1010
00:44:15,490 --> 00:44:12,200
know 36 Polynesian and Melanesian in the

1011
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:15,500
and 19 statements that they based their

1012
00:44:20,110 --> 00:44:18,010
afterlife beliefs on those Indies

1013
00:44:22,870 --> 00:44:20,120
melodies especially they were open to

1014
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:22,880
all kinds of different kinds of

1015
00:44:27,820 --> 00:44:25,250
practices like mediumship they believed

1016
00:44:30,430 --> 00:44:27,830
in soul travel possession just kind of

1017
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:30,440
like open to all of it

1018
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:32,810
Polynesians you know for the most part

1019
00:44:37,090 --> 00:44:35,810
very focused on Anandi's total casual

1020
00:44:39,070 --> 00:44:37,100
acceptance of them it's like of course

1021
00:44:42,310 --> 00:44:39,080
their fact of course we base our

1022
00:44:46,150 --> 00:44:42,320
religion on it and what's interesting

1023
00:44:49,510 --> 00:44:46,160
there is Micronesia and Australia no

1024
00:44:51,610 --> 00:44:49,520
Indies no examples of people saying they

1025
00:44:56,140 --> 00:44:51,620
based their beliefs on Indies and that's

1026
00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:56,150
because in Australia basically shamanic

1027
00:45:01,990 --> 00:44:57,890
soul traveled to other worlds

1028
00:45:04,030 --> 00:45:02,000
took the place and it's almost like the

1029
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:04,040
concepts of NDA's and shamanism there

1030
00:45:08,140 --> 00:45:05,930
were so intertwined there was no

1031
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:08,150
difference between them so so there's no

1032
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:09,920
real context of saying somebody died and

1033
00:45:15,070 --> 00:45:11,930
came back it's just like you know these

1034
00:45:16,690 --> 00:45:15,080
are people who who do this and then in

1035
00:45:18,790 --> 00:45:16,700
Micronesia it was just a lot more

1036
00:45:20,710 --> 00:45:18,800
similar to African example with similar

1037
00:45:23,620 --> 00:45:20,720
kinds of burial beliefs and beliefs

1038
00:45:27,310 --> 00:45:23,630
about you know souls coming back and

1039
00:45:29,380 --> 00:45:27,320
things like that but it's just so to me

1040
00:45:32,620 --> 00:45:29,390
so totally clear when you have zero

1041
00:45:36,010 --> 00:45:32,630
examples and and then in other cultures

1042
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:36,020
you know Polynesian Melanesia 36 and 20

1043
00:45:41,530 --> 00:45:38,330
of them almost saying we based our Andes

1044
00:45:43,030 --> 00:45:41,540
on this you know that's to me a

1045
00:45:45,790 --> 00:45:43,040
scientific proof you know you don't have

1046
00:45:47,350 --> 00:45:45,800
to go beyond a speculation of our people

1047
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:47,360
basing their beliefs on these

1048
00:45:54,810 --> 00:45:50,330
experiences okay we're like where you

1049
00:45:58,350 --> 00:45:54,820
want to go next you choose this time

1050
00:46:01,090 --> 00:45:58,360
okay I was hoping you might say that

1051
00:46:02,830 --> 00:46:01,100
let's talk about the cross-cultural kind

1052
00:46:04,980 --> 00:46:02,840
of work that you've done and the

1053
00:46:08,980 --> 00:46:04,990
methodology that we keep talking about

1054
00:46:11,860 --> 00:46:08,990
versus you know other NDE research I was

1055
00:46:14,740 --> 00:46:11,870
just remarking a video by the very

1056
00:46:17,140 --> 00:46:14,750
excellent doctor Peter fennec in a TED

1057
00:46:19,540 --> 00:46:17,150
talk so he's talking to a very general

1058
00:46:22,300 --> 00:46:19,550
kind of science II audience but he's

1059
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:22,310
talking about the importance of the

1060
00:46:25,780 --> 00:46:24,650
cardiac arrest research and I think a

1061
00:46:28,270 --> 00:46:25,790
lot of people when they first

1062
00:46:31,090 --> 00:46:28,280
near-death experience research they

1063
00:46:33,010 --> 00:46:31,100
don't necessarily pick up on that you

1064
00:46:36,340 --> 00:46:33,020
know that hey people are having all

1065
00:46:38,410 --> 00:46:36,350
sorts of ND ease under all sorts of

1066
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:38,420
different circumstances right jumping

1067
00:46:43,690 --> 00:46:40,610
off the Golden Gate Bridge drowning in a

1068
00:46:45,550 --> 00:46:43,700
pool just being really afraid or not

1069
00:46:48,190 --> 00:46:45,560
being afraid and just having it so the

1070
00:46:48,700 --> 00:46:48,200
same kind of mix that you're talking

1071
00:46:51,550 --> 00:46:48,710
about

1072
00:46:54,430 --> 00:46:51,560
there's contemporary accounts of the

1073
00:46:58,090 --> 00:46:54,440
same thing but the near-death experience

1074
00:47:01,620 --> 00:46:58,100
research / science that we hear about so

1075
00:47:04,300 --> 00:47:01,630
much is based on a group of really smart

1076
00:47:06,340 --> 00:47:04,310
scientists saying you know what to get

1077
00:47:09,070 --> 00:47:06,350
to the bottom of this we have to try and

1078
00:47:11,050 --> 00:47:09,080
control some of these variables it's

1079
00:47:13,630 --> 00:47:11,060
almost the opposite of your research you

1080
00:47:15,730 --> 00:47:13,640
know you had to open up the valve a

1081
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:15,740
little bit and let in a lot of accounts

1082
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:19,370
in order to understand this they're

1083
00:47:23,470 --> 00:47:20,810
doing the opposite they're saying you

1084
00:47:27,010 --> 00:47:23,480
know what tell you what let's restrict

1085
00:47:29,050 --> 00:47:27,020
this to cardiac arrest in a hospital

1086
00:47:31,330 --> 00:47:29,060
because now I think I have a pretty good

1087
00:47:34,510 --> 00:47:31,340
idea of the physiology that's going on

1088
00:47:37,390 --> 00:47:34,520
and the conclusion for that more than

1089
00:47:39,490 --> 00:47:37,400
overwhelming unanimous is that

1090
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:39,500
consciousness is surviving death in a

1091
00:47:44,230 --> 00:47:41,930
way we don't understand because the

1092
00:47:45,220 --> 00:47:44,240
neurological model is completely outside

1093
00:47:47,410 --> 00:47:45,230
out of the window

1094
00:47:49,060 --> 00:47:47,420
it just is because whether you want to

1095
00:47:51,850 --> 00:47:49,070
call it death or not death or whatever

1096
00:47:54,670 --> 00:47:51,860
we're seeing consciousness at a time

1097
00:47:56,620 --> 00:47:54,680
when the brain based on our current

1098
00:47:58,500 --> 00:47:56,630
neurological models shouldn't be able to

1099
00:48:01,270 --> 00:47:58,510
produce consciousness and yet

1100
00:48:04,780 --> 00:48:01,280
consciousness is there it's showing up

1101
00:48:07,300 --> 00:48:04,790
so I guess I'm kind of late enough of

1102
00:48:09,580 --> 00:48:07,310
the groundwork I'm just wondering what

1103
00:48:12,130 --> 00:48:09,590
your thoughts are of that on that in

1104
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:12,140
terms of you know Bravo to you for

1105
00:48:18,940 --> 00:48:14,810
seeing that you needed to kind of open

1106
00:48:21,910 --> 00:48:18,950
up the the gates and let in these

1107
00:48:24,910 --> 00:48:21,920
accounts but then you know any thoughts

1108
00:48:30,610 --> 00:48:24,920
on the contrast of how that compares

1109
00:48:33,210 --> 00:48:30,620
with modern NDE research yeah well I

1110
00:48:39,609 --> 00:48:36,250
this kind of research that I've done has

1111
00:48:41,500 --> 00:48:39,619
to be taken into account in any theory

1112
00:48:43,540 --> 00:48:41,510
of any he's really I mean not

1113
00:48:46,150 --> 00:48:43,550
necessarily how its integrated into

1114
00:48:48,609 --> 00:48:46,160
cultures and religion but just the

1115
00:48:53,020 --> 00:48:48,619
cross-cultural differences in NDE

1116
00:48:54,550 --> 00:48:53,030
accounts so and and I talked about this

1117
00:48:57,220 --> 00:48:54,560
in the book there's a section towards

1118
00:49:02,230 --> 00:48:57,230
the end on you know what are the

1119
00:49:05,050 --> 00:49:02,240
implications of all this cross-cultural

1120
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:05,060
differences for the idea that NDEs are

1121
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:09,290
genuine evidence of an afterlife because

1122
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:12,410
if you know if it is if Andes are

1123
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:14,570
evidence for an afterlife then that

1124
00:49:18,970 --> 00:49:16,490
means it's a universal phenomena

1125
00:49:22,450 --> 00:49:18,980
presumably that it's evidence of an

1126
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:22,460
afterlife for everybody who has one and

1127
00:49:26,410 --> 00:49:24,650
if that's the case why aren't for

1128
00:49:30,940 --> 00:49:26,420
example most people in small-scale

1129
00:49:33,580 --> 00:49:30,950
societies having life reviews why why is

1130
00:49:37,030 --> 00:49:33,590
it you know a tunnel not a common

1131
00:49:38,460 --> 00:49:37,040
experience and things like that so and

1132
00:49:40,660 --> 00:49:38,470
that's right I kind of go back to the

1133
00:49:42,310 --> 00:49:40,670
explanation of the thematic thing so

1134
00:49:44,710 --> 00:49:42,320
there might not be tunnels everywhere

1135
00:49:46,570 --> 00:49:44,720
you might not have a you know an

1136
00:49:49,180 --> 00:49:46,580
Australian person saying I went through

1137
00:49:51,150 --> 00:49:49,190
a tunnel but he probably will say I went

1138
00:49:54,190 --> 00:49:51,160
through darkness and emerged into light

1139
00:49:56,349 --> 00:49:54,200
you might not have a panoramic life

1140
00:50:00,190 --> 00:49:56,359
review you know described in a kind of

1141
00:50:02,290 --> 00:50:00,200
contemporary Western sense in you know a

1142
00:50:07,240 --> 00:50:02,300
small-scale society somewhere but they

1143
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:07,250
will say there was a deity there and he

1144
00:50:12,849 --> 00:50:09,650
had all of the history of my life in a

1145
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:12,859
book you know it's thematically the same

1146
00:50:16,780 --> 00:50:14,690
thing or even if it's not that

1147
00:50:19,599 --> 00:50:16,790
somatically close there's always some

1148
00:50:21,490 --> 00:50:19,609
evaluation of the person's like almost

1149
00:50:23,650 --> 00:50:21,500
always you know what did what kind of

1150
00:50:25,780 --> 00:50:23,660
person you were you do you have to go

1151
00:50:28,270 --> 00:50:25,790
back and if you have to go back why so

1152
00:50:29,740 --> 00:50:28,280
to me seems like there's two entirely

1153
00:50:31,810 --> 00:50:29,750
different set of questions there that

1154
00:50:33,460 --> 00:50:31,820
have to be approached you know

1155
00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:33,470
completely differently and I think the

1156
00:50:38,050 --> 00:50:35,710
methodology that you've applied is

1157
00:50:40,930 --> 00:50:38,060
super-important I'm not so sure that I

1158
00:50:44,500 --> 00:50:40,940
would be totally aligned with you in

1159
00:50:45,850 --> 00:50:44,510
terms of those then raise questions that

1160
00:50:47,950 --> 00:50:45,860
NDE

1161
00:50:50,190 --> 00:50:47,960
has to address kind of been in a

1162
00:50:51,790 --> 00:50:50,200
different way it's almost me like the

1163
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:51,800
parapsychology example I remember

1164
00:50:57,010 --> 00:50:54,170
interviewing Dean Radin very early on

1165
00:50:58,810 --> 00:50:57,020
when he's kind of pounding away like a

1166
00:51:01,300 --> 00:50:58,820
real good scientist at these

1167
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:01,310
presentiment experiments that he did and

1168
00:51:05,860 --> 00:51:03,530
he replicates him two times in four

1169
00:51:08,290 --> 00:51:05,870
times in five times and maybe 50 times

1170
00:51:10,510 --> 00:51:08,300
and then it's like well yeah but you're

1171
00:51:13,290 --> 00:51:10,520
showing a small effect sighs people are

1172
00:51:17,170 --> 00:51:13,300
able to see or sense the future you know

1173
00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:17,180
55 percent versus 45 percent show us the

1174
00:51:20,980 --> 00:51:19,730
really extreme examples and he was like

1175
00:51:22,720 --> 00:51:20,990
you know what I think that's been

1176
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:22,730
showing already that's already been

1177
00:51:28,090 --> 00:51:25,010
demonstrated what I'm trying to see is

1178
00:51:31,450 --> 00:51:28,100
whether this is something that is an

1179
00:51:34,150 --> 00:51:31,460
innate property of human nature if it

1180
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:34,160
appears across the board and I will see

1181
00:51:38,650 --> 00:51:36,050
the same thing kind of going on here

1182
00:51:39,430 --> 00:51:38,660
I don't think anybody needs to repeat at

1183
00:51:43,530 --> 00:51:39,440
this point

1184
00:51:47,290 --> 00:51:43,540
dr. Phoenix work or sampar Nia's work or

1185
00:51:49,930 --> 00:51:47,300
PIM van Lommel or Jeff Long anyone whose

1186
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:49,940
fair and open-minded has to look at that

1187
00:51:54,340 --> 00:51:52,490
research and say case closed for

1188
00:51:57,340 --> 00:51:54,350
whatever reason that we don't understand

1189
00:51:59,350 --> 00:51:57,350
consciousness seems to survive bodily

1190
00:52:00,880 --> 00:51:59,360
death these people are clinically dead

1191
00:52:03,090 --> 00:52:00,890
and they're having a conscious

1192
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:03,100
experience our neurological existing

1193
00:52:07,660 --> 00:52:05,210
neurological models don't explain that

1194
00:52:10,780 --> 00:52:07,670
well I see your research coming in is

1195
00:52:14,410 --> 00:52:10,790
really to go to that next level of

1196
00:52:16,930 --> 00:52:14,420
understanding but the really important

1197
00:52:19,810 --> 00:52:16,940
implications are okay before we jump the

1198
00:52:23,590 --> 00:52:19,820
gun and say okay that means that Jesus

1199
00:52:26,650 --> 00:52:23,600
really is mediating all these it's like

1200
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:26,660
oh yeah I don't mean to say that it's a

1201
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:30,530
challenge to you know ideas that that in

1202
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:31,970
these are evidence of an afterlife I

1203
00:52:36,220 --> 00:52:34,490
just think is that it's a it's something

1204
00:52:37,930 --> 00:52:36,230
that needs to be explained and addressed

1205
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:37,940
along with a kind of comprehensive

1206
00:52:43,540 --> 00:52:41,690
theory of what an NDE is and I think you

1207
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:43,550
know I feel like I've kind of I've done

1208
00:52:48,660 --> 00:52:46,330
that component they can integrate it

1209
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:48,670
whichever's I you know I've shown that

1210
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:51,050
Andy's are different across cultures

1211
00:52:54,700 --> 00:52:52,370
I've shown that they're also the same

1212
00:52:56,210 --> 00:52:54,710
across cultures at the same time and I

1213
00:52:59,510 --> 00:52:56,220
think given

1214
00:53:02,329 --> 00:52:59,520
you know reason why that fair fair

1215
00:53:04,940 --> 00:53:02,339
enough so so you're the not so fast guy

1216
00:53:06,859 --> 00:53:04,950
over there like hey okay I'm with you

1217
00:53:08,390 --> 00:53:06,869
but not so fast you know right I'll see

1218
00:53:09,950 --> 00:53:08,400
there are some questions over here that

1219
00:53:14,089 --> 00:53:09,960
are and it's exactly what you said I

1220
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:14,099
mean I you can't have you know and this

1221
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:16,290
is why I research seems to kind of piss

1222
00:53:22,730 --> 00:53:18,690
off both sides of the camp you you have

1223
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:22,740
people who are you know you know almost

1224
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:24,930
sort of religious about and E's and firm

1225
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:27,210
firm believers in it and their model of

1226
00:53:31,720 --> 00:53:29,970
wooden and II ela is like is the model

1227
00:53:34,190 --> 00:53:31,730
and if it's not that in other cultures

1228
00:53:35,420 --> 00:53:34,200
they don't consider it an MD key so

1229
00:53:37,700 --> 00:53:35,430
they're taking the exact opposite

1230
00:53:39,620 --> 00:53:37,710
approach that I did worse I'm saying if

1231
00:53:41,690 --> 00:53:39,630
if they say it's an NDE I'm going to

1232
00:53:42,140 --> 00:53:41,700
consider it an NDE and let's see what it

1233
00:53:43,849 --> 00:53:42,150
says

1234
00:53:45,349 --> 00:53:43,859
that's the phenomenological approach and

1235
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:45,359
it basically just reading what is in the

1236
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:50,010
text whereas you know to say no he

1237
00:53:54,020 --> 00:53:51,810
didn't have an NDE or she didn't have an

1238
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:54,030
ID because she didn't see it being of

1239
00:53:57,190 --> 00:53:55,290
light she didn't go through a tunnel

1240
00:53:59,720 --> 00:53:57,200
described specifically as a tunnel

1241
00:54:02,780 --> 00:53:59,730
didn't have a life whatever whatever it

1242
00:54:05,540 --> 00:54:02,790
is and that's why I guess I'm saying is

1243
00:54:07,900 --> 00:54:05,550
I think we need to move beyond almost

1244
00:54:09,950 --> 00:54:07,910
all the other cross-cultural comparisons

1245
00:54:14,270 --> 00:54:09,960
before the stuff I've done have been

1246
00:54:16,420 --> 00:54:14,280
just obsessed really with what exactly

1247
00:54:19,579 --> 00:54:16,430
is the common core of the NDE

1248
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:19,589
and if there's no life review then it's

1249
00:54:24,079 --> 00:54:21,690
not you know that whole kind of argument

1250
00:54:26,300 --> 00:54:24,089
Verizon I just think like we need to

1251
00:54:29,990 --> 00:54:26,310
look at you know the Grayson scale or

1252
00:54:31,910 --> 00:54:30,000
whatever as this is a list of possible

1253
00:54:34,579 --> 00:54:31,920
elements that can be included in an NDE

1254
00:54:37,010 --> 00:54:34,589
if somebody dies and comes back to life

1255
00:54:38,569 --> 00:54:37,020
or almost dies and comes back let's see

1256
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:38,579
what they have to say we can compare it

1257
00:54:43,030 --> 00:54:40,530
to the scale but if it doesn't hit that

1258
00:54:45,770 --> 00:54:43,040
scale does that mean it's not an Andy

1259
00:54:47,420 --> 00:54:45,780
that's right you know I don't think so

1260
00:54:48,770 --> 00:54:47,430
and that's where I think over

1261
00:54:53,540 --> 00:54:48,780
generalizing is a little bit of a

1262
00:54:55,490 --> 00:54:53,550
problem just as denying similarity is

1263
00:54:58,839 --> 00:54:55,500
equally a problem so it's really just

1264
00:55:02,420 --> 00:54:58,849
you know my only argument really is

1265
00:55:04,430 --> 00:55:02,430
scientists or whoever is speculating

1266
00:55:07,670 --> 00:55:04,440
making theories about in DES has to have

1267
00:55:08,290 --> 00:55:07,680
to take the similarities and the

1268
00:55:11,170 --> 00:55:08,300
different

1269
00:55:13,780 --> 00:55:11,180
and explaining both of them in order to

1270
00:55:15,190 --> 00:55:13,790
you know not be subject to the kind of

1271
00:55:18,250 --> 00:55:15,200
criticism that theories have been

1272
00:55:20,950 --> 00:55:18,260
subject to so far that's such a great

1273
00:55:23,350 --> 00:55:20,960
point and if I'm gonna pick maybe I'm

1274
00:55:27,190 --> 00:55:23,360
gonna pick another one thing because I

1275
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:27,200
think it leads into this which I don't

1276
00:55:33,490 --> 00:55:30,410
know I guess I'm really accepting of

1277
00:55:35,590 --> 00:55:33,500
what you are saying and I'm blown away

1278
00:55:36,460 --> 00:55:35,600
by what you've done and I have to

1279
00:55:38,890 --> 00:55:36,470
mention to people

1280
00:55:41,260 --> 00:55:38,900
this book is an expensive book to just

1281
00:55:43,570 --> 00:55:41,270
kind of pick up casually we all get that

1282
00:55:46,780 --> 00:55:43,580
it's Oxford University Press it's like

1283
00:55:48,330 --> 00:55:46,790
seventy bucks if you can afford it if

1284
00:55:51,910 --> 00:55:48,340
you're really into this kind of research

1285
00:55:54,250 --> 00:55:51,920
do it because it's really worthwhile and

1286
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:54,260
it's kind of a cornerstone kind of book

1287
00:55:59,290 --> 00:55:55,970
to have but for a lot of people they're

1288
00:56:01,180 --> 00:55:59,300
just gonna have to pass on the book and

1289
00:56:04,210 --> 00:56:01,190
maybe to look at side or watch this

1290
00:56:09,250 --> 00:56:04,220
interview but don't let it decide you

1291
00:56:11,290 --> 00:56:09,260
from fully taking in what dr. Shoshanna

1292
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:11,300
is saying because I think it is this

1293
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:16,010
part of this maturing of nde science

1294
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:19,490
it's going beyond the spinning our

1295
00:56:25,660 --> 00:56:23,690
wheels trying to respond to the disa

1296
00:56:27,820 --> 00:56:25,670
leanness that's been thrown in the face

1297
00:56:32,470 --> 00:56:27,830
of these researchers for the most part

1298
00:56:37,590 --> 00:56:32,480
but I guess that's where I still see in

1299
00:56:40,420 --> 00:56:37,600
your book I still see someone who is

1300
00:56:43,240 --> 00:56:40,430
inside of an academic culture that

1301
00:56:46,090 --> 00:56:43,250
really to me for the most part seems

1302
00:56:48,070 --> 00:56:46,100
completely ignorant of the real science

1303
00:56:50,110 --> 00:56:48,080
that's going on in your experience I

1304
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:50,120
mean it just is they're not they're not

1305
00:56:54,430 --> 00:56:52,610
hitting on any of the real stuff they're

1306
00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:54,440
just repeating you know well this

1307
00:56:59,620 --> 00:56:56,720
couldn't possibly be true last gasp of a

1308
00:57:01,780 --> 00:56:59,630
dying grain or whatever when all these

1309
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:01,790
things have been addressed and they have

1310
00:57:07,300 --> 00:57:04,610
problems with it you know there are

1311
00:57:09,910 --> 00:57:07,310
problems with some of the conclusions

1312
00:57:12,790 --> 00:57:09,920
and over generalizations that NDE

1313
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:12,800
researchers and and proponents Moore

1314
00:57:15,820 --> 00:57:14,450
proponents than the researchers because

1315
00:57:18,490 --> 00:57:15,830
I think most the research was pretty

1316
00:57:20,950 --> 00:57:18,500
level-headed but when I read this you

1317
00:57:22,060 --> 00:57:20,960
know this is from your book whether the

1318
00:57:24,460 --> 00:57:22,070
prompting is

1319
00:57:27,670 --> 00:57:24,470
biological psychological and or

1320
00:57:30,310 --> 00:57:27,680
metaphysical in nature set that aside I

1321
00:57:32,470 --> 00:57:30,320
get that you have to do that I get that

1322
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:32,480
you're in an academic where that's the

1323
00:57:39,730 --> 00:57:36,050
belief that 90% of the folks that you

1324
00:57:43,270 --> 00:57:39,740
speak to have but I'd almost say if we

1325
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:43,280
have to set it aside then that's not

1326
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:45,050
what your book is about your butt really

1327
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:47,090
isn't about that you sidestep that and

1328
00:57:51,220 --> 00:57:49,010
say okay let's set that aside but now

1329
00:57:53,700 --> 00:57:51,230
let me assume that there is a reality to

1330
00:57:56,470 --> 00:57:53,710
it and I also don't like the kind of

1331
00:57:59,620 --> 00:57:56,480
forced equality here you know that the

1332
00:58:01,780 --> 00:57:59,630
the biological and physiological are

1333
00:58:04,750 --> 00:58:01,790
really on put the evidence is really on

1334
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:04,760
par with the metaphysical no freakin way

1335
00:58:10,590 --> 00:58:07,130
it just is no I agree with you there and

1336
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:10,600
I think somewhere I do say that no

1337
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:13,250
theory has been you know comprehensively

1338
00:58:18,790 --> 00:58:16,970
able to explain away in bees which is

1339
00:58:23,470 --> 00:58:18,800
you know that's a it's a big step for an

1340
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:23,480
academic book so so I mean I think but

1341
00:58:26,980 --> 00:58:24,770
at the same time yet it is an academic

1342
00:58:28,420 --> 00:58:26,990
book and it's not a theology book it's

1343
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:28,430
you know history of religions

1344
00:58:34,870 --> 00:58:31,010
anthropology so so there is there does

1345
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:34,880
have to be that neutrality and you know

1346
00:58:39,430 --> 00:58:36,770
when somebody comes along and reviews it

1347
00:58:42,190 --> 00:58:39,440
and says I'm a crypto theologian I have

1348
00:58:45,790 --> 00:58:42,200
a religious agenda right which you know

1349
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:45,800
they say then I can say well look at

1350
00:58:50,140 --> 00:58:48,290
that sentence you know I don't and

1351
00:58:51,700 --> 00:58:50,150
actually don't because you know I wasn't

1352
00:59:02,950 --> 00:58:51,710
I

1353
00:59:05,290 --> 00:59:02,960
believe that that Andes have not been

1354
00:59:07,390 --> 00:59:05,300
explained in a way and I think that you

1355
00:59:10,690 --> 00:59:07,400
know a lot of the evidence is amazing

1356
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:10,700
the peak and Darien type experiences you

1357
00:59:14,830 --> 00:59:13,490
know where people's seeing people that

1358
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:14,840
they didn't know it died and come back

1359
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:17,210
and find out that they did die and

1360
00:59:22,180 --> 00:59:19,450
that's how do you explain things like

1361
00:59:24,190 --> 00:59:22,190
death experience is always one that

1362
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:24,200
doesn't get enough attention where as

1363
00:59:28,540 --> 00:59:25,970
other people in the room and they share

1364
00:59:32,140 --> 00:59:28,550
the experience they do can't even

1365
00:59:34,930 --> 00:59:32,150
and a biological explanation on that you

1366
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:34,940
know yeah yeah and you know in another

1367
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:37,130
place I went out on a limb in that book

1368
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:41,090
is there's a section on which is

1369
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:44,090
basically given all these things about

1370
00:59:51,910 --> 00:59:47,170
religious diversity diversity of NDEs

1371
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:51,920
etc etc if there is a real afterlife

1372
00:59:57,070 --> 00:59:54,410
what could it possibly be like so so

1373
01:00:02,470 --> 00:59:57,080
what are the implications of all this

1374
01:00:03,970 --> 01:00:02,480
diversity for for an afterlife and I

1375
01:00:05,620 --> 01:00:03,980
think that's you know that's not

1376
01:00:08,590 --> 01:00:05,630
something that's you're going to come

1377
01:00:11,140 --> 01:00:08,600
across in the traditional work of

1378
01:00:12,850 --> 01:00:11,150
anthropology or history of religions

1379
01:00:14,980 --> 01:00:12,860
that's where it's kind of going into the

1380
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:14,990
you know philosophical speculation but

1381
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:18,770
but I think it's to me that was treating

1382
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:22,490
the metaphysical interpretation

1383
01:00:28,180 --> 01:00:25,370
seriously and it is giving it its due

1384
01:00:29,710 --> 01:00:28,190
that's such an awesome point I want to

1385
01:00:32,470 --> 01:00:29,720
emphasize that because you know I almost

1386
01:00:36,070 --> 01:00:32,480
missed that and when you just repeated

1387
01:00:38,170 --> 01:00:36,080
it it kind of stirred up in me again so

1388
01:00:39,850 --> 01:00:38,180
I want you to expound on that a little

1389
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:39,860
it's like you're taking the leap

1390
01:00:45,100 --> 01:00:42,770
and saying okay let me play the

1391
01:00:48,940 --> 01:00:45,110
metaphysical game for a minute and now

1392
01:00:51,700 --> 01:00:48,950
let me try and speculate as to what the

1393
01:00:55,090 --> 01:00:51,710
implications might be and then your book

1394
01:00:57,820 --> 01:00:55,100
is like hey doesn't this look like this

1395
01:01:01,360 --> 01:00:57,830
could be the implications yeah there's a

1396
01:01:04,870 --> 01:01:01,370
section on cross-cultural Indians and

1397
01:01:09,970 --> 01:01:04,880
the survival hypothesis where it kind of

1398
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:09,980
addresses exactly that and yeah I mean

1399
01:01:14,500 --> 01:01:11,930
so so it's kind of back to the question

1400
01:01:16,390 --> 01:01:14,510
of you know certain certain scholars

1401
01:01:18,100 --> 01:01:16,400
there was a big debate in journals

1402
01:01:21,790 --> 01:01:18,110
near-death studies a couple years ago

1403
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:21,800
about how Fendi's are different across

1404
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:23,330
cultures there can't possibly be an

1405
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:25,490
afterlife so I kind of I delve into that

1406
01:01:32,230 --> 01:01:30,410
and because it's true if NDEs are

1407
01:01:35,010 --> 01:01:32,240
evidence of an afterlife across cultures

1408
01:01:37,020 --> 01:01:35,020
no single religion is true

1409
01:01:39,500 --> 01:01:37,030
so we have to face that you know the

1410
01:01:41,940 --> 01:01:39,510
Christian model of an afterlife not true

1411
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:41,950
you know Islamic model Jewish can do

1412
01:01:51,090 --> 01:01:46,690
whatever and when you say not true we

1413
01:01:53,460 --> 01:01:51,100
it's just not exclusively true because I

1414
01:01:55,710 --> 01:01:53,470
don't know I because again what your

1415
01:01:57,720 --> 01:01:55,720
research comes through is that there's

1416
01:02:00,600 --> 01:01:57,730
all these overlays you know yeah yeah

1417
01:02:02,910 --> 01:02:00,610
but none of these dogmas let's say have

1418
01:02:05,700 --> 01:02:02,920
hit it 100 percent correctly I would say

1419
01:02:07,470 --> 01:02:05,710
each one of them has elements that are

1420
01:02:11,010 --> 01:02:07,480
you know getting towards the truth

1421
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:11,020
whatever the truth might be unto me that

1422
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:13,570
that truth is where there's convergences

1423
01:02:18,330 --> 01:02:15,850
in similarities across cultures they're

1424
01:02:20,130 --> 01:02:18,340
all these similar things that people are

1425
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:20,140
arriving at independently are probably

1426
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:21,970
the things that are closest to the truth

1427
01:02:30,090 --> 01:02:28,450
so some of my you know the idea is so if

1428
01:02:34,410 --> 01:02:30,100
everyone's different how can they all be

1429
01:02:36,660 --> 01:02:34,420
right you know if if all these Indies

1430
01:02:38,550 --> 01:02:36,670
are different even between individuals

1431
01:02:40,500 --> 01:02:38,560
you know that was recognized by my moody

1432
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:40,510
way back he said there are no two and

1433
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:42,850
E's that are going to hit all of these

1434
01:02:48,330 --> 01:02:45,130
criteria so even there how do we explain

1435
01:02:51,470 --> 01:02:48,340
it let alone bringing in Katinas and

1436
01:02:54,330 --> 01:02:51,480
ancestor spirits and whatever else so

1437
01:02:57,720 --> 01:02:54,340
you know that's another thing that you

1438
01:03:00,530 --> 01:02:57,730
know as I said in de science researchers

1439
01:03:03,330 --> 01:03:00,540
have to confront these things but so do

1440
01:03:06,540 --> 01:03:03,340
philosophers or theologians about the

1441
01:03:09,090 --> 01:03:06,550
afterlife but you bring that around full

1442
01:03:10,530 --> 01:03:09,100
circle and say you could also look at it

1443
01:03:12,900 --> 01:03:10,540
and turn the question around and say

1444
01:03:15,060 --> 01:03:12,910
well isn't that really evidence that

1445
01:03:17,609 --> 01:03:15,070
there is something deeper going on right

1446
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:17,619
yeah yeah you could definitely look at

1447
01:03:24,180 --> 01:03:21,970
it that way and yeah that's where I kind

1448
01:03:25,530 --> 01:03:24,190
of come to an impasse the the the issue

1449
01:03:28,230 --> 01:03:25,540
of similarity to me

1450
01:03:29,910 --> 01:03:28,240
it demonstrates in DES it demonstrates

1451
01:03:32,790 --> 01:03:29,920
their influence on religion

1452
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:32,800
but it doesn't necessarily you know just

1453
01:03:38,130 --> 01:03:35,050
to be perfectly objective about it it

1454
01:03:39,930 --> 01:03:38,140
doesn't necessarily demonstrate that nd

1455
01:03:41,970 --> 01:03:39,940
either actually evidence of an afterlife

1456
01:03:46,020 --> 01:03:41,980
but but fair enough fair enough

1457
01:03:48,740 --> 01:03:46,030
I guess what struck me because I am at

1458
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:48,750
this point pretty solidly can

1459
01:03:52,730 --> 01:03:50,970
just by the evidence that because I've

1460
01:03:55,130 --> 01:03:52,740
talked to all those people multiple

1461
01:03:59,360 --> 01:03:55,140
times and I just can't shoot holes in

1462
01:04:01,580 --> 01:03:59,370
there yeah yeah but one of the things

1463
01:04:06,220 --> 01:04:01,590
that that I liked about what would you

1464
01:04:10,330 --> 01:04:06,230
dot did and where you brought me to is

1465
01:04:13,610 --> 01:04:10,340
speculating imagining how these

1466
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:13,620
experiences may have informed these

1467
01:04:18,140 --> 01:04:15,810
religions may have influenced these

1468
01:04:21,410 --> 01:04:18,150
religions you know and someone had

1469
01:04:25,250 --> 01:04:21,420
posted on the forum made the connection

1470
01:04:27,820 --> 01:04:25,260
between life review and confessional in

1471
01:04:31,130 --> 01:04:27,830
in the Roman Catholic Church you know

1472
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:31,140
right and it's a loose Association but

1473
01:04:36,050 --> 01:04:33,450
can't you just see it there's more

1474
01:04:39,530 --> 01:04:36,060
clear-cut examples that maybe you can

1475
01:04:43,130 --> 01:04:39,540
think of where you you can almost see

1476
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:43,140
how these consistent themes of the

1477
01:04:48,530 --> 01:04:46,130
near-death experience do seem to be

1478
01:04:50,060 --> 01:04:48,540
organically emerging in these religions

1479
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:50,070
and it's not organic really it's it's

1480
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:52,770
it's coming directly from the NVE and a

1481
01:04:57,170 --> 01:04:55,290
lot of times it's it's co-opted and

1482
01:05:00,350 --> 01:04:57,180
maybe not used in a way that we all

1483
01:05:03,650 --> 01:05:00,360
think is so great but isn't that just

1484
01:05:07,130 --> 01:05:03,660
the history of religion too so yeah yeah

1485
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:07,140
I think that's definitely the case yeah

1486
01:05:13,790 --> 01:05:11,250
I mean I it's it's just a case of again

1487
01:05:15,410 --> 01:05:13,800
it goes back to the you know balancing

1488
01:05:18,740 --> 01:05:15,420
the similarities and the differences and

1489
01:05:20,630 --> 01:05:18,750
and if if there really is an afterlife

1490
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:20,640
how do we explain it in light of the

1491
01:05:28,460 --> 01:05:24,570
diversity and and I think for me the the

1492
01:05:30,110 --> 01:05:28,470
model that best explains it is I know if

1493
01:05:33,940 --> 01:05:30,120
you're familiar with HH price who's a

1494
01:05:37,310 --> 01:05:33,950
British philosopher he talks about a

1495
01:05:39,140 --> 01:05:37,320
inter subjective afterlife where it's

1496
01:05:41,930 --> 01:05:39,150
basically like a lucid dream that you're

1497
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:41,940
sharing with other people and to me that

1498
01:05:45,950 --> 01:05:43,170
accounts for the cross-cultural

1499
01:05:48,110 --> 01:05:45,960
similarities of an NDE it also accounts

1500
01:05:50,540 --> 01:05:48,120
for the cultural and individual

1501
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:50,550
particularity of a Hindi because if

1502
01:05:57,010 --> 01:05:53,490
you're creating it as your your going

1503
01:05:59,840 --> 01:05:57,020
along that would you know account for

1504
01:06:02,070 --> 01:05:59,850
the the thematic similarities but also

1505
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:02,080
the cultural differences

1506
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:04,330
I think it really addresses a lot and it

1507
01:06:09,150 --> 01:06:07,090
also it doesn't mean that Emmys are just

1508
01:06:10,590 --> 01:06:09,160
a dream or that the afterlife is just a

1509
01:06:13,550 --> 01:06:10,600
dream it's another state of reality

1510
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:13,560
where you have this different level of

1511
01:06:18,540 --> 01:06:16,930
creation and control involved in it well

1512
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:18,550
you know what so many of the great

1513
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:20,650
spiritual masters have been telling us

1514
01:06:26,100 --> 01:06:23,650
throughout time and it's also a very

1515
01:06:27,780 --> 01:06:26,110
popular topic among people who are

1516
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:27,790
interested in studying the paranormal

1517
01:06:34,460 --> 01:06:32,050
and present time is that that a better

1518
01:06:37,620 --> 01:06:34,470
way of looking at it is that our

1519
01:06:41,550 --> 01:06:37,630
time-space continuum that we experience

1520
01:06:43,890 --> 01:06:41,560
is a small part of consciousness that we

1521
01:06:44,340 --> 01:06:43,900
are embedded in and that would explain

1522
01:06:51,270 --> 01:06:44,350
it

1523
01:06:53,460 --> 01:06:51,280
masters have told us all along so we put

1524
01:06:55,590 --> 01:06:53,470
it in this nice little box of time-space

1525
01:06:58,200 --> 01:06:55,600
reality but when we step outside of that

1526
01:07:01,080 --> 01:06:58,210
either through and theagenes or any

1527
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:01,090
number of other experiences that get us

1528
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:03,970
outside of that it all looks different

1529
01:07:09,090 --> 01:07:06,250
we get these downloads of information to

1530
01:07:11,700 --> 01:07:09,100
tell us oh okay I get it now and then we

1531
01:07:13,590 --> 01:07:11,710
have to come back and live our little

1532
01:07:16,500 --> 01:07:13,600
humble little lives here and I guess

1533
01:07:18,660 --> 01:07:16,510
there's really only one topic left I

1534
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:18,670
appreciate how you know Opeth you are

1535
01:07:22,020 --> 01:07:20,530
generous you are playing our little game

1536
01:07:25,140 --> 01:07:22,030
here but it's been that's absolutely

1537
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:25,150
delightful yeah but here's a tough one

1538
01:07:28,350 --> 01:07:27,370
oh wait I just I just remember I didn't

1539
01:07:30,570 --> 01:07:28,360
quite answer your previous question

1540
01:07:34,860 --> 01:07:30,580
about Christianity and confessional

1541
01:07:36,540 --> 01:07:34,870
stuff I was just going to add that when

1542
01:07:38,820 --> 01:07:36,550
we have the kind this is what like kind

1543
01:07:41,580 --> 01:07:38,830
of wider implications of this book is

1544
01:07:43,770 --> 01:07:41,590
when we have all these examples of

1545
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:43,780
people in different societies saying our

1546
01:07:47,580 --> 01:07:45,610
religions are based on Indies or our

1547
01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:47,590
afterlife beliefs are based on NDS

1548
01:07:51,710 --> 01:07:49,570
there's no reason to think that

1549
01:07:53,700 --> 01:07:51,720
Christianity would be any different or

1550
01:07:57,720 --> 01:07:53,710
any other religion would be any

1551
01:08:00,150 --> 01:07:57,730
different so and I think it probably is

1552
01:08:02,010 --> 01:08:00,160
the case because there are plenty of you

1553
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:02,020
know AMD's and Christian traditions and

1554
01:08:05,460 --> 01:08:03,970
going back to medieval times and some

1555
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:05,470
people think Steve Paul's vision was an

1556
01:08:09,660 --> 01:08:07,690
NDE so it definitely has some

1557
01:08:11,100 --> 01:08:09,670
similarities to it there's Greek oh

1558
01:08:12,420 --> 01:08:11,110
that's a great point I'm glad you

1559
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:12,430
brought that up because we kind of just

1560
01:08:14,670 --> 01:08:13,690
jumped right in the middle of it

1561
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:14,680
assuming that

1562
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:17,410
understand that this is like the next

1563
01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:21,010
chapter in this book it's not assuming

1564
01:08:26,610 --> 01:08:23,050
that we have to go look at indigenous

1565
01:08:29,340 --> 01:08:26,620
people because they are the only ones

1566
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:29,350
who are whose you know little puny

1567
01:08:34,410 --> 01:08:32,050
religions have been you know manipulated

1568
01:08:36,090 --> 01:08:34,420
by these nd ease it's like no it's the

1569
01:08:37,620 --> 01:08:36,100
opposite it's like right you can get

1570
01:08:41,190 --> 01:08:37,630
that like you said at the beginning

1571
01:08:44,190 --> 01:08:41,200
because you can get that cross-cultural

1572
01:08:46,010 --> 01:08:44,200
wide the myth can't travel during these

1573
01:08:48,630 --> 01:08:46,020
periods kind of things so yeah I mean

1574
01:08:51,660 --> 01:08:48,640
you know the Pure Land Buddhism for

1575
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:51,670
example is you know very clearly these

1576
01:08:54,900 --> 01:08:53,410
are very central to the religion so it's

1577
01:08:57,030 --> 01:08:54,910
not as you know there are examples that

1578
01:09:03,990 --> 01:08:57,040
are not just you know small-scale

1579
01:09:06,540 --> 01:09:04,000
societies sorry no very good as with all

1580
01:09:08,250 --> 01:09:06,550
your other ones great point so here's my

1581
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:08,260
last topic and this is going to be way

1582
01:09:13,830 --> 01:09:11,050
outside of your swing zone but hey

1583
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:13,840
that's part of the fun of pushing

1584
01:09:17,610 --> 01:09:15,970
pushing to other things I've been doing

1585
01:09:19,710 --> 01:09:17,620
a lot of research and investigation

1586
01:09:23,850 --> 01:09:19,720
lately and it's got to be research

1587
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:23,860
because the the claim that human beings

1588
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:26,730
are contacting non-human intelligence is

1589
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:30,010
reaching the point of something that we

1590
01:09:34,770 --> 01:09:32,770
can actually talk about without being

1591
01:09:38,700 --> 01:09:34,780
kind of laughed out of the room i

1592
01:09:41,010 --> 01:09:38,710
reference ray Hernandez who's along with

1593
01:09:43,650 --> 01:09:41,020
Harvard social scientist

1594
01:09:47,490 --> 01:09:43,660
Rudy shields has published the first

1595
01:09:49,950 --> 01:09:47,500
academic survey of non-human

1596
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:49,960
intelligence contact with people it

1597
01:09:54,780 --> 01:09:52,330
parallels some of the work of dr. Jeff

1598
01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:54,790
long radiation oncologist who's done the

1599
01:10:00,270 --> 01:09:57,010
similar largest database for NDE

1600
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:00,280
research and then with the disclosure

1601
01:10:03,780 --> 01:10:01,570
you know a lot of people I always have

1602
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:03,790
to say this could people forget we have

1603
01:10:08,670 --> 01:10:05,890
the New York Times coming out and saying

1604
01:10:10,190 --> 01:10:08,680
okay UFOs are real here's the video

1605
01:10:12,870 --> 01:10:10,200
released by the Department of Defense

1606
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:12,880
they're for whatever reason we're in

1607
01:10:19,650 --> 01:10:15,370
this mode where we can now put this

1608
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:19,660
stuff on the table I wonder what we

1609
01:10:27,450 --> 01:10:23,770
might think 20 years from now how we

1610
01:10:28,260 --> 01:10:27,460
might consider almost in parallel with

1611
01:10:35,930 --> 01:10:28,270
the

1612
01:10:38,490 --> 01:10:35,940
contact with non-human intelligence so

1613
01:10:41,310 --> 01:10:38,500
and this does have more direct

1614
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:41,320
connection to your book because if we

1615
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:44,530
accept the shamanic experience as being

1616
01:10:49,890 --> 01:10:47,050
not just a near-death experience

1617
01:10:52,740 --> 01:10:49,900
but somehow possibly some connection

1618
01:10:54,630 --> 01:10:52,750
with these extended consciousness realms

1619
01:10:56,340 --> 01:10:54,640
well then we're right in the soup with

1620
01:10:59,880 --> 01:10:56,350
ET and all the rest of it because he

1621
01:11:03,180 --> 01:10:59,890
showed up all the time there you know

1622
01:11:06,510 --> 01:11:03,190
even from our dr. Rick Strassman in New

1623
01:11:09,180 --> 01:11:06,520
Mexico who gives his subjects DMT and I

1624
01:11:12,480 --> 01:11:09,190
said up there it is there is et over

1625
01:11:15,030 --> 01:11:12,490
there you know so any thoughts I know

1626
01:11:18,060 --> 01:11:15,040
this is really a stretch but the reason

1627
01:11:21,870 --> 01:11:18,070
I title decides this slide silos is in

1628
01:11:23,970 --> 01:11:21,880
the same way that your work moves us

1629
01:11:25,650 --> 01:11:23,980
forward by kind of breaking down some of

1630
01:11:29,070 --> 01:11:25,660
these barriers and talking about the

1631
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:29,080
stuff that really we have to address I

1632
01:11:33,150 --> 01:11:30,970
think this is another one of those

1633
01:11:36,030 --> 01:11:33,160
things where we we have to try and

1634
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:36,040
understand what's going on in these

1635
01:11:41,480 --> 01:11:39,010
extended consciousness realms in a in a

1636
01:11:44,010 --> 01:11:41,490
broader way rather than immediately

1637
01:11:45,930 --> 01:11:44,020
pigeonholing it stifle link dance I know

1638
01:11:50,700 --> 01:11:45,940
it can't only be this or it can only be

1639
01:11:52,770 --> 01:11:50,710
that yeah I mean that's that's where you

1640
01:11:54,900 --> 01:11:52,780
know he's talking about the HH price

1641
01:11:59,220 --> 01:11:54,910
model of you know the lucid dreaming

1642
01:12:01,680 --> 01:11:59,230
afterlife collective lucid dreaming you

1643
01:12:03,440 --> 01:12:01,690
know it always I kind of get tripped up

1644
01:12:07,010 --> 01:12:03,450
when I think okay well but what about

1645
01:12:10,530 --> 01:12:07,020
these you know divine beings and

1646
01:12:13,290 --> 01:12:10,540
Kachinas and whatever other kind of you

1647
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:13,300
know deity or whatever is encountered

1648
01:12:19,050 --> 01:12:17,170
are those with those be souls of the

1649
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:19,060
dead who have reached a certain stage of

1650
01:12:22,350 --> 01:12:20,770
transformation or development or

1651
01:12:23,430 --> 01:12:22,360
whatever or is it and what does that let

1652
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:23,440
me interject right there because that's

1653
01:12:27,900 --> 01:12:25,690
people slide over that what does that

1654
01:12:29,940 --> 01:12:27,910
even mean if it's a stage of development

1655
01:12:32,220 --> 01:12:29,950
or transformation now where are

1656
01:12:34,050 --> 01:12:32,230
automatically suggesting that there is a

1657
01:12:36,210 --> 01:12:34,060
hierarchy to those extended realms if

1658
01:12:38,460 --> 01:12:36,220
there's a fire key is there a top of

1659
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:38,470
that hierarchy is there god for lack of

1660
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:40,330
a better term that we're not comfortable

1661
01:12:44,110 --> 01:12:41,570
saying but that

1662
01:12:45,850 --> 01:12:44,120
is that the accounts come through just

1663
01:12:49,740 --> 01:12:45,860
consistently over and over again but

1664
01:12:53,010 --> 01:12:49,750
please keep going with your flow don't

1665
01:12:56,890 --> 01:12:53,020
ya or if not a hierarchy at least eight

1666
01:12:58,200 --> 01:12:56,900
I mean I think there can be this kind of

1667
01:13:01,000 --> 01:12:58,210
transformation without there being

1668
01:13:03,070 --> 01:13:01,010
necessarily a you know like a system or

1669
01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:03,080
bureaucracy and it's when I start

1670
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:04,490
hearing things like that that make me

1671
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:07,130
really skeptical about afterlife but I

1672
01:13:12,940 --> 01:13:08,810
have to do that let me interject there

1673
01:13:14,140 --> 01:13:12,950
that is directly what dr. Jeff long and

1674
01:13:16,150 --> 01:13:14,150
again for people who aren't familiar

1675
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:16,160
with his research this is not a guy who

1676
01:13:19,450 --> 01:13:17,570
has a religious agenda

1677
01:13:21,340 --> 01:13:19,460
it's a radiation oncologist who just

1678
01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:21,350
starts collecting these cases and in his

1679
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:23,570
latest book God in the afterlife which

1680
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:25,010
has a provocative title that throws

1681
01:13:29,710 --> 01:13:27,530
everyone off I interviewed him anyone

1682
01:13:32,710 --> 01:13:29,720
can watch it it's a extremely popular

1683
01:13:34,450 --> 01:13:32,720
interview and he says hey I didn't go

1684
01:13:36,130 --> 01:13:34,460
looking for this this is just what the

1685
01:13:38,140 --> 01:13:36,140
data says and as a matter of fact what

1686
01:13:39,850 --> 01:13:38,150
he says is interesting from a social

1687
01:13:40,870 --> 01:13:39,860
science standpoint like you said he said

1688
01:13:44,170 --> 01:13:40,880
I don't know why this is so

1689
01:13:45,940 --> 01:13:44,180
underreported this is war just go look

1690
01:13:48,460 --> 01:13:45,950
at my database that's online this is

1691
01:13:51,580 --> 01:13:48,470
much more widely reported than the

1692
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:51,590
tunnel then you know all the travel all

1693
01:13:56,020 --> 01:13:53,570
these other things is an experience of

1694
01:14:00,340 --> 01:13:56,030
God an experience of hierarchy that

1695
01:14:02,020 --> 01:14:00,350
being was higher than me in a way that

1696
01:14:04,210 --> 01:14:02,030
has been explained to me as God

1697
01:14:05,950 --> 01:14:04,220
throughout my life so I'm calling it God

1698
01:14:08,500 --> 01:14:05,960
so that's the kind of stuff that I think

1699
01:14:10,500 --> 01:14:08,510
I'm not saying I'm going there I don't

1700
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:10,510
have I'm not a Christian I'm not

1701
01:14:16,870 --> 01:14:13,250
religious I don't have that agenda I'm

1702
01:14:20,170 --> 01:14:16,880
just saying I'm not I don't think we

1703
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:20,180
should immediately put that aside if

1704
01:14:27,130 --> 01:14:22,250
that's where the data takes us yeah I

1705
01:14:29,380 --> 01:14:27,140
mean I guess I would yeah I don't know

1706
01:14:31,690 --> 01:14:29,390
if those kind of entities would be like

1707
01:14:35,710 --> 01:14:31,700
I said some kind of transformed human

1708
01:14:38,620 --> 01:14:35,720
soul or something totally different you

1709
01:14:41,440 --> 01:14:38,630
know from an alien or different type of

1710
01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:41,450
deity entity or whatever I don't know

1711
01:14:47,740 --> 01:14:44,210
how that could even be addressed but I

1712
01:14:50,020 --> 01:14:47,750
guess the you know the reader my

1713
01:14:51,450 --> 01:14:50,030
skepticism arises not just with

1714
01:14:53,370 --> 01:14:51,460
hierarchies but system

1715
01:14:55,560 --> 01:14:53,380
and when I when people say there was a

1716
01:14:57,510 --> 01:14:55,570
library and there's columns and Greek

1717
01:15:01,470 --> 01:14:57,520
croaks it's just like that you know I

1718
01:15:03,270 --> 01:15:01,480
shut down not not fruit nut that I

1719
01:15:04,740 --> 01:15:03,280
disbelieve the person experienced that

1720
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:04,750
but I just believe that that is the

1721
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:06,370
objective reality that everyone's going

1722
01:15:12,870 --> 01:15:10,530
to experience so um you know some

1723
01:15:15,150 --> 01:15:12,880
peasant farmer and Siberia is not going

1724
01:15:18,570 --> 01:15:15,160
to probably experience something like

1725
01:15:21,030 --> 01:15:18,580
that whatever you know so I just think

1726
01:15:23,610 --> 01:15:21,040
if there if if there is an afterlife if

1727
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:23,620
these things are true it's just a lot

1728
01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:25,570
more chaotic than we think I mean think

1729
01:15:31,590 --> 01:15:29,530
about reincarnation as well maybe it's

1730
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:31,600
just the case that it's true that most

1731
01:15:36,870 --> 01:15:34,690
so many of the reincarnation accounts in

1732
01:15:38,250 --> 01:15:36,880
Stevenson and other researchers come

1733
01:15:40,470 --> 01:15:38,260
from India where they happen to believe

1734
01:15:42,209 --> 01:15:40,480
in reincarnation and Druze people who

1735
01:15:44,850 --> 01:15:42,219
believe in reincarnation there are some

1736
01:15:47,910 --> 01:15:44,860
and you know very famous ones in in the

1737
01:15:50,850 --> 01:15:47,920
West but they're exceptions so you know

1738
01:15:54,540 --> 01:15:50,860
maybe it's the case that people steer

1739
01:15:57,390 --> 01:15:54,550
their afterlife experience and whether

1740
01:15:59,340 --> 01:15:57,400
consciously or unconsciously when they

1741
01:16:01,770 --> 01:15:59,350
die I you know I don't know I just think

1742
01:16:03,630 --> 01:16:01,780
it's um hey I think it's great that you

1743
01:16:04,950 --> 01:16:03,640
went there and that's a super important

1744
01:16:06,780 --> 01:16:04,960
contribution in your books we got to

1745
01:16:09,240 --> 01:16:06,790
keep emphasizing that is the differences

1746
01:16:11,550 --> 01:16:09,250
you know you're this anthropology guy

1747
01:16:13,950 --> 01:16:11,560
who keeps saying hey explain you know

1748
01:16:16,350 --> 01:16:13,960
how there's this huge difference in this

1749
01:16:18,209 --> 01:16:16,360
person saw it this way in that way but

1750
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:18,219
it is interesting I have to point out

1751
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:19,930
that that's the example you'd bring

1752
01:16:25,350 --> 01:16:22,930
which is Ian Stevenson and they were all

1753
01:16:26,959 --> 01:16:25,360
from India and Sri Lanka because most

1754
01:16:30,630 --> 01:16:26,969
the people I talk to about reincarnation

1755
01:16:33,780 --> 01:16:30,640
focus on the three year old boy who was

1756
01:16:35,850 --> 01:16:33,790
in a fighter jet in Missouri he was

1757
01:16:37,830 --> 01:16:35,860
walking past the toy store and said to

1758
01:16:39,930 --> 01:16:37,840
his mom owns three hey that's the plane

1759
01:16:43,440 --> 01:16:39,940
I was in and then describes in detail

1760
01:16:45,660 --> 01:16:43,450
the plane who is flying with all this

1761
01:16:47,310 --> 01:16:45,670
harasses his parents to death when they

1762
01:16:51,090 --> 01:16:47,320
finally go do the research and find the

1763
01:16:53,280 --> 01:16:51,100
pilot yeah or the other guy but you know

1764
01:16:55,470 --> 01:16:53,290
I going to pursue Virginia where they've

1765
01:16:58,050 --> 01:16:55,480
studied this more than anyone in Jim

1766
01:16:59,970 --> 01:16:58,060
Tucker has you know you're familiar with

1767
01:17:02,040 --> 01:16:59,980
all this stuff but I inject it and just

1768
01:17:03,480 --> 01:17:02,050
to get into the show the kid from

1769
01:17:06,530 --> 01:17:03,490
Hollywood similar you know there

1770
01:17:09,510 --> 01:17:06,540
young boy who sees a picture of this

1771
01:17:10,770 --> 01:17:09,520
1950s movie and said hey I know that guy

1772
01:17:14,130 --> 01:17:10,780
and then they go through this extensive

1773
01:17:17,610 --> 01:17:14,140
research and I have 54 points of contact

1774
01:17:19,890 --> 01:17:17,620
where this guy has memories of this past

1775
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:19,900
life so again you can explain it away as

1776
01:17:24,450 --> 01:17:22,090
this you know I love what you said about

1777
01:17:28,530 --> 01:17:24,460
that oh it's all in the Akashic records

1778
01:17:30,930 --> 01:17:28,540
and anyone can go do okay but that's not

1779
01:17:34,410 --> 01:17:30,940
what he's that's not your answer says

1780
01:17:36,510 --> 01:17:34,420
the experiencer says I lived in that

1781
01:17:38,250 --> 01:17:36,520
body and as a matter of fact at the end

1782
01:17:43,020 --> 01:17:38,260
Stephen said here's the scar on my back

1783
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:43,030
where I got shot so hey I'm open to the

1784
01:17:49,500 --> 01:17:47,290
shared dream kind of thing but it is fun

1785
01:17:52,110 --> 01:17:49,510
to talk about this with someone like

1786
01:17:53,850 --> 01:17:52,120
yourself we've really done the work so

1787
01:17:55,590 --> 01:17:53,860
we can kind of get to that next level

1788
01:17:58,320 --> 01:17:55,600
because that's what this work is really

1789
01:18:02,400 --> 01:17:58,330
all about is getting us into a dialogue

1790
01:18:05,310 --> 01:18:02,410
about the deeper questions yeah and I

1791
01:18:07,200 --> 01:18:05,320
think I would you know the ultimate you

1792
01:18:11,340 --> 01:18:07,210
know submarine would have about is first

1793
01:18:14,820 --> 01:18:11,350
after life goes you know nature is

1794
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:14,830
pretty chaotic life is chaotic life is

1795
01:18:20,790 --> 01:18:18,970
really diverse human populations are

1796
01:18:25,110 --> 01:18:20,800
incredibly diverse a Hammel pup you know

1797
01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:25,120
it's it's a chaotic crazy universe that

1798
01:18:29,100 --> 01:18:26,650
we live in and there are some rules and

1799
01:18:32,490 --> 01:18:29,110
there is a lot of random chaos so I just

1800
01:18:34,470 --> 01:18:32,500
think that if there is an afterlife it's

1801
01:18:36,600 --> 01:18:34,480
part of nature I do I don't believe in

1802
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:36,610
like that it would be supernatural

1803
01:18:39,780 --> 01:18:38,170
because if it exists it's going to be a

1804
01:18:42,480 --> 01:18:39,790
part of nature right that's it's part of

1805
01:18:44,490 --> 01:18:42,490
the human experience so if that's the

1806
01:18:46,730 --> 01:18:44,500
case then there's no reason why we

1807
01:18:49,800 --> 01:18:46,740
should suddenly experience order and

1808
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:49,810
similarity and structure you know with

1809
01:18:57,240 --> 01:18:52,050
all these things are basically

1810
01:18:57,720 --> 01:18:57,250
inventions of humans anyway awesome

1811
01:19:02,820 --> 01:18:57,730
stuff

1812
01:19:05,250 --> 01:19:02,830
so dr. Chacon how can people follow your

1813
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:05,260
work I mentioned this is an awesome book

1814
01:19:10,440 --> 01:19:07,810
if you can fork over the 70 bucks or

1815
01:19:12,990 --> 01:19:10,450
whatever to Oxford press you'll enjoy it

1816
01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:13,000
you'll get a lot out of it if you can't

1817
01:19:16,710 --> 01:19:14,890
and people want to follow what's going

1818
01:19:17,280 --> 01:19:16,720
on you do some you have some great

1819
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:17,290
present

1820
01:19:20,940 --> 01:19:19,090
out there on YouTube I've seen a couple

1821
01:19:23,130 --> 01:19:20,950
and other places

1822
01:19:24,750 --> 01:19:23,140
how do people stay connected with this

1823
01:19:26,340 --> 01:19:24,760
important work that you're doing and I

1824
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:26,350
guess I should preface that with asking

1825
01:19:33,480 --> 01:19:28,690
are you going to continue or have you

1826
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:33,490
kind of had it with this I thought I had

1827
01:19:38,700 --> 01:19:36,850
but now I'm gonna put together an

1828
01:19:40,440 --> 01:19:38,710
anthology of historical and

1829
01:19:42,510 --> 01:19:40,450
cross-cultural and E's so people can

1830
01:19:44,940 --> 01:19:42,520
read you know the full accounts from for

1831
01:19:47,220 --> 01:19:44,950
themselves because these things are just

1832
01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:47,230
scattered all over the place you know

1833
01:19:53,160 --> 01:19:50,290
like I said in this book alone hundreds

1834
01:19:54,960 --> 01:19:53,170
and hundreds of you know sources that I

1835
01:19:57,330 --> 01:19:54,970
look through anthropological reports

1836
01:20:00,390 --> 01:19:57,340
missionary reports really obscure stuff

1837
01:20:02,010 --> 01:20:00,400
hunt it down and you know in a book like

1838
01:20:03,990 --> 01:20:02,020
that you can't provide all of them

1839
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:04,000
verbatim so it's just a lot of brief

1840
01:20:08,610 --> 01:20:05,890
summaries so I'd like to provide you

1841
01:20:11,340 --> 01:20:08,620
know have a nice good anthology of those

1842
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:11,350
accounts medieval European accounts

1843
01:20:15,660 --> 01:20:13,810
Asian accounts from around the world and

1844
01:20:17,930 --> 01:20:15,670
then stuff like that so that's going to

1845
01:20:20,700 --> 01:20:17,940
be the next project mostly going to do a

1846
01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:20,710
book on Indies and the afterlife in

1847
01:20:27,360 --> 01:20:23,530
Greece and Rome that's kind of a little

1848
01:20:29,340 --> 01:20:27,370
bit further down the pike this book

1849
01:20:32,190 --> 01:20:29,350
should be mountain paper backed by the

1850
01:20:35,790 --> 01:20:32,200
way within you know probably less than a

1851
01:20:38,850 --> 01:20:35,800
year so that will the current book on

1852
01:20:40,950 --> 01:20:38,860
indigenous religions so um that will be

1853
01:20:44,010 --> 01:20:40,960
more affordable at a certain stage I've

1854
01:20:44,700 --> 01:20:44,020
kind of been you know pushing Oxford

1855
01:20:47,190 --> 01:20:44,710
University Press

1856
01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:47,200
to to make it sooner than later but

1857
01:20:50,970 --> 01:20:48,610
hopefully it'll be you know early next

1858
01:20:53,900 --> 01:20:50,980
year or something like that and I also

1859
01:20:56,910 --> 01:20:53,910
have a website gregory shushan calm and

1860
01:20:59,220 --> 01:20:56,920
you can find different articles there

1861
01:21:01,590 --> 01:20:59,230
through the one on african and E's i

1862
01:21:05,310 --> 01:21:01,600
think is where the native american one

1863
01:21:07,380 --> 01:21:05,320
is is up there so a lot of kind of stuff

1864
01:21:09,510 --> 01:21:07,390
that came from this book and also a lot

1865
01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:09,520
of the theoretical and methodological

1866
01:21:15,930 --> 01:21:13,330
stuff if any listeners are interested in

1867
01:21:18,330 --> 01:21:15,940
and these kinds of debates where you

1868
01:21:19,620 --> 01:21:18,340
know certain scholars are saying

1869
01:21:21,870 --> 01:21:19,630
everything is

1870
01:21:24,110 --> 01:21:21,880
entirely culturally constructed and

1871
01:21:27,390 --> 01:21:24,120
linguistically constructed a kind of

1872
01:21:29,730 --> 01:21:27,400
attack that stuff head-on in a couple of

1873
01:21:33,350 --> 01:21:29,740
articles there's one on Vedic afterlife

1874
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:33,360
beliefs so I tried to keep this book

1875
01:21:37,590 --> 01:21:35,890
that keep that stuff to a minimum in

1876
01:21:38,700 --> 01:21:37,600
this book there's a really heavy theory

1877
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:38,710
and Method stuff to make it more

1878
01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:40,930
accessible so hopefully when it does

1879
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:43,330
come out in paperback people will enjoy

1880
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:46,530
it well it's an absolutely great

1881
01:21:52,260 --> 01:21:49,810
contribution and I really appreciate you

1882
01:21:54,090 --> 01:21:52,270
joining us today and talking about it so

1883
01:21:56,820 --> 01:21:54,100
that's the thanks I didn't thanks again

1884
01:21:58,890 --> 01:21:56,830
thanks hey time thanks again to dr.

1885
01:22:01,170 --> 01:21:58,900
gregory shushan for joining me today on

1886
01:22:02,700 --> 01:22:01,180
skeptic oh the one question I guess I

1887
01:22:05,490 --> 01:22:02,710
teed up from this interview is the

1888
01:22:08,190 --> 01:22:05,500
question that dr. Shushan is still

1889
01:22:09,630 --> 01:22:08,200
wrestling with and that is do the

1890
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:09,640
differences we see in near-death

1891
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:12,970
accounts across cultures make it more or

1892
01:22:20,490 --> 01:22:16,810
less likely that deer death experiences

1893
01:22:23,730 --> 01:22:20,500
are genuine encounters with the

1894
01:22:26,790 --> 01:22:23,740
afterlife with extended consciousness as

1895
01:22:29,460 --> 01:22:26,800
I like to say so I think you know my

1896
01:22:32,580 --> 01:22:29,470
position on that but I'd like to hear

1897
01:22:35,340 --> 01:22:32,590
what you think and your understanding of

1898
01:22:37,860 --> 01:22:35,350
pulling that apart in any way you see

1899
01:22:40,860 --> 01:22:37,870
fit so comment here if you're watching

1900
01:22:43,320 --> 01:22:40,870
on YouTube or on The Skeptical forum or

1901
01:22:46,140 --> 01:22:43,330
wherever you are let me know your

1902
01:22:48,660 --> 01:22:46,150
thoughts do stay tuned I have some more

1903
01:22:50,310 --> 01:22:48,670
excellent I think interviews coming up

1904
01:22:52,830 --> 01:22:50,320
because there does some extraordinary

1905
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:52,840
guests who are coming up and be sure to

1906
01:22:56,750 --> 01:22:54,970
check out the skeptical website where

1907
01:23:00,000 --> 01:22:56,760
you can find all these interviews

1908
01:23:02,220 --> 01:23:00,010
available for free thanks so much for

1909
01:23:05,310 --> 01:23:02,230
watching and being a part of this